Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
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Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by EPJr » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:42 am
Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
We are going to be competing to be the top conference in the country. I don't see how anyone can argue differently. Our numbers are fantastic.
With the exception of DePaul, one thing these numbers seem to show is that the Big East schools don't lose a lot of games to lower conference teams...
...in contrast, the 4 ACC schools I highlighted Thursday (Georgia Tech, Wake, Virginia and Boston College) lost a combined 26 games vs teams from the weaker conferences, including double digit losses to Kennesaw State, Stetson, Holy Cross, Boston University, etc...
...in our case, however, the 10 Big East teams combined to go an amazing 307-34 vs the weakest conferences. If DePaul is removed, the other 9 Big East teams combine to go 277-24...
Another thing that these numbers seem to show is that our league is going to be stacked with great teams:
http://www.csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=636682
We are going to be competing to be the top conference in the country. I don't see how anyone can argue differently. Our numbers are fantastic.
With the exception of DePaul, one thing these numbers seem to show is that the Big East schools don't lose a lot of games to lower conference teams...
...in contrast, the 4 ACC schools I highlighted Thursday (Georgia Tech, Wake, Virginia and Boston College) lost a combined 26 games vs teams from the weaker conferences, including double digit losses to Kennesaw State, Stetson, Holy Cross, Boston University, etc...
...in our case, however, the 10 Big East teams combined to go an amazing 307-34 vs the weakest conferences. If DePaul is removed, the other 9 Big East teams combine to go 277-24...
Another thing that these numbers seem to show is that our league is going to be stacked with great teams:
http://www.csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=636682
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by BillEsq » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:46 pm
There is so much wrong with this study it hurts....
1. It is not amazing to have a 90% win over teams from weak conference aka buy games... These games are nearly always home games and well they are buy games for a reason.
2. The subjective classification of a major/midmajor/ everyone else always leads to troubling statistics and faulty math to anything built upon it. You can argue for or against the merits of the various stat machines but its always better to rank your OOC based on RPI sagrin or another more objective system. I suggest using the RPI as it is what powers the selecting committee (for better or worse).
3. The subjective classification of everyone else excluding the 4 "midmajors" into a lump of nondescript outside of a few localized teams (based on the writers entirely subjective reasoning). This writer obviously has something against BC. Somehow Cornell in one season makes mid major status while BC gets punished for loosing to a Harvard Team that for the past few years has been in and out of the top 25 in Boston- essentially a neutral site game. He also points out BCs losses to the Terriers another Boston Cross town game. The Terriers have also been pretty decent the past 5 years. In short poor overwhelmed Fordham in the A-10 is classified as a mid major win for X while, the BU loss is punished as a BC bad loss. I could go on and on but to put an 0-27 grambling state in the same class as top 25 team is pretty wild.
4. Freaking OOC SOS is built off of the quality of your best opponents. You can't say that at home we have a 900 winning percentage against the lil sisters of the poor so obviously we are the best basketball conference. See previous SEC scheduling logic.
5. In five years the BE teams have played less than 5 mid majors and 3 majors a season. That folks equates out to your neutral site tournament, the BE/SEC challenge, Nova's Big 5 games and one or two scheduled home and homes. There you go. Heck the SEC challenge are basically free wins as long as you avoid UK and Florida
LOL see what happens when you use subjective definitions to define your own greatness. Personally i think the BE will be one of the top conferences next year. However any success or failure will have 0 to do with the facts described on that study/post
1. It is not amazing to have a 90% win over teams from weak conference aka buy games... These games are nearly always home games and well they are buy games for a reason.
2. The subjective classification of a major/midmajor/ everyone else always leads to troubling statistics and faulty math to anything built upon it. You can argue for or against the merits of the various stat machines but its always better to rank your OOC based on RPI sagrin or another more objective system. I suggest using the RPI as it is what powers the selecting committee (for better or worse).
3. The subjective classification of everyone else excluding the 4 "midmajors" into a lump of nondescript outside of a few localized teams (based on the writers entirely subjective reasoning). This writer obviously has something against BC. Somehow Cornell in one season makes mid major status while BC gets punished for loosing to a Harvard Team that for the past few years has been in and out of the top 25 in Boston- essentially a neutral site game. He also points out BCs losses to the Terriers another Boston Cross town game. The Terriers have also been pretty decent the past 5 years. In short poor overwhelmed Fordham in the A-10 is classified as a mid major win for X while, the BU loss is punished as a BC bad loss. I could go on and on but to put an 0-27 grambling state in the same class as top 25 team is pretty wild.
4. Freaking OOC SOS is built off of the quality of your best opponents. You can't say that at home we have a 900 winning percentage against the lil sisters of the poor so obviously we are the best basketball conference. See previous SEC scheduling logic.
5. In five years the BE teams have played less than 5 mid majors and 3 majors a season. That folks equates out to your neutral site tournament, the BE/SEC challenge, Nova's Big 5 games and one or two scheduled home and homes. There you go. Heck the SEC challenge are basically free wins as long as you avoid UK and Florida
LOL see what happens when you use subjective definitions to define your own greatness. Personally i think the BE will be one of the top conferences next year. However any success or failure will have 0 to do with the facts described on that study/post
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by billyjack » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:13 pm
Thanks for posting this... that was my post on the other site (I meant to post it here as well but didn't get around to it), so I will re-post the entire thing here as well... some in the sportstalk world have been critical of our teams and conference. Knowing that our schools have played great hoops, I decided to look into the numbers.
Below are OOC numbers for each of the 10 Big East schools over the past 5 years.
Conclusion up front: We are going to be competing to be the top conference in the country. I don't see how anyone can argue differently. Our numbers are fantastic.
These numbers seem to show is that our league is going to be stacked with great teams:
Big East vs majors: 86-79 (.521 winning pct).
Big East vs majors excluding DePaul: 82-69 (.543 winning pct).
Big East vs midmajors: 68-47 (.591 winning pct).
If we include in-conference-games of Creighton in the MVC (61-29), Xavier in the A-10 (60-20), and Butler in the A-10 (11-5) within the numbers, then:
Big East vs midmajors fully including CU, XU, BU: 200-101 (.664 pct).
Big East vs lowers: 307-34 (.900 winning pct).
Big East vs lowers excluding DePaul: (.920 winning pct).
For these numbers:
The major conferences are the Big East, ACC, Big Ten, Big-12, Pac-12 and SEC.
The midmajors are the A-10, WCC, Missouri Valley, and Mountain West. Also, Memphis, Butler in the Horizon, VCU in the CAA, George Mason, and also Cornell (only in their Sweet 16 year), are all considered midmajors, but no other teams from their respective conferences are included as midmajors.
List is below--
Below are OOC numbers for each of the 10 Big East schools over the past 5 years.
Conclusion up front: We are going to be competing to be the top conference in the country. I don't see how anyone can argue differently. Our numbers are fantastic.
These numbers seem to show is that our league is going to be stacked with great teams:
Big East vs majors: 86-79 (.521 winning pct).
Big East vs majors excluding DePaul: 82-69 (.543 winning pct).
Big East vs midmajors: 68-47 (.591 winning pct).
If we include in-conference-games of Creighton in the MVC (61-29), Xavier in the A-10 (60-20), and Butler in the A-10 (11-5) within the numbers, then:
Big East vs midmajors fully including CU, XU, BU: 200-101 (.664 pct).
Big East vs lowers: 307-34 (.900 winning pct).
Big East vs lowers excluding DePaul: (.920 winning pct).
For these numbers:
The major conferences are the Big East, ACC, Big Ten, Big-12, Pac-12 and SEC.
The midmajors are the A-10, WCC, Missouri Valley, and Mountain West. Also, Memphis, Butler in the Horizon, VCU in the CAA, George Mason, and also Cornell (only in their Sweet 16 year), are all considered midmajors, but no other teams from their respective conferences are included as midmajors.
List is below--
Last edited by billyjack on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Providence
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by billyjack » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:15 pm
PROVIDENCE, MARQUETTE AND GEORGETOWN:
Providence:
PC is 46-16 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
PC is 4-8 vs majors.
PC is 7-5 vs midmajors.
The Friars are 35-3 vs lower conferences.
PC major wins were:
Mississippi State +10, South Carolina +9, Boston College +7, Alabama +12.
PC major losses were:
Penn State-OT, Boston College-3, Iowa State-10, Boston College-2, Alabama-9, Boston College-5, Baylor-16, Boston College-5.
PC midmajor wins were:
Rhody +5, Rhody +19, Wyoming +7, Rhody +13, George Washington +13, Rhody +1, Charlotte +5.
PC midmajor losses were:
UMass-2, Northern Iowa-17, LaSalle-11, Rhody-4, St Mary's-6.
PC losses to lower conf were:
Brown-1, Iona-9, Northeastern-4.
Marquette:
Marquette is 49-14 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
Marquette is 10-10 vs majors.
Marquette is 2-3 vs midmajors.
The Warriors are 37-1 vs lower conferences.
Marquette major wins were:
Wisconsin +10, Mississippi State +27, LSU +4, Southern Cal +8, Ole Miss +30, Washington +2, Wisconsin +7, Michigan +13, NC State +3, Wisconsin +3.
Marquette major losses were
Florida-33, LSU-8, Vandy-17, Duke-5, Wisconsin-5, Vandy-1, Florida State-1, NC State-4, Wisconsin-9, Tennessee-12.
Marquette midmajor wins were:
Xavier +10, Northern Iowa +30.
Marquette midmajor losses were:
Butler-1, Gonzaga-3, Dayton-14.
The Marquette loss to a lower conference was:
Green Bay-2.
In the NCAAs:
2013 W Davidson +1, W Butler +2, W Miami (Fla) +10, L Syracuse-16.
2012 W Brigham Young +20, Murray State +9, L Florida-10.
2011 W Xavier +11, W Syracuse +4, L UNC-18.
2010 L Washington-2.
2009 W Utah State +1, L Mizzou-4.
Georgetown:
GU is 50-6 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
GU is 9-5 vs majors.
GU is 7-0 vs midmajors.
The Hoyas are 34-1 vs lower conferences.
GU major wins were:
UCLA +8, Tennessee +1, Texas +23, Alabama +2, Mizzou +OT, NC State +15, Duke +12, Washington +8, Maryland +27.
GU major losses were:
Indiana-OT, Kansas-4, Temple-3, Duke-9, Tennessee-12.
Hoya midmajor wins were:
Duquesne +6, Memphis +OT, Memphis +17, Temple +1, Butler +7, Memphis +OT, Wichita State +8.
The Hoyas have no midmajor losses.
The Hoyas have 1 lower conference loss:
Old Dominion-4.
In the NCAAs:
2013 L Fla Gulf Coast-10.
2012 W Belmont +15, L NC State-3.
2011 L VCU-18.
2010 L Ohio Univ-14.
Providence:
PC is 46-16 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
PC is 4-8 vs majors.
PC is 7-5 vs midmajors.
The Friars are 35-3 vs lower conferences.
PC major wins were:
Mississippi State +10, South Carolina +9, Boston College +7, Alabama +12.
PC major losses were:
Penn State-OT, Boston College-3, Iowa State-10, Boston College-2, Alabama-9, Boston College-5, Baylor-16, Boston College-5.
PC midmajor wins were:
Rhody +5, Rhody +19, Wyoming +7, Rhody +13, George Washington +13, Rhody +1, Charlotte +5.
PC midmajor losses were:
UMass-2, Northern Iowa-17, LaSalle-11, Rhody-4, St Mary's-6.
PC losses to lower conf were:
Brown-1, Iona-9, Northeastern-4.
Marquette:
Marquette is 49-14 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
Marquette is 10-10 vs majors.
Marquette is 2-3 vs midmajors.
The Warriors are 37-1 vs lower conferences.
Marquette major wins were:
Wisconsin +10, Mississippi State +27, LSU +4, Southern Cal +8, Ole Miss +30, Washington +2, Wisconsin +7, Michigan +13, NC State +3, Wisconsin +3.
Marquette major losses were
Florida-33, LSU-8, Vandy-17, Duke-5, Wisconsin-5, Vandy-1, Florida State-1, NC State-4, Wisconsin-9, Tennessee-12.
Marquette midmajor wins were:
Xavier +10, Northern Iowa +30.
Marquette midmajor losses were:
Butler-1, Gonzaga-3, Dayton-14.
The Marquette loss to a lower conference was:
Green Bay-2.
In the NCAAs:
2013 W Davidson +1, W Butler +2, W Miami (Fla) +10, L Syracuse-16.
2012 W Brigham Young +20, Murray State +9, L Florida-10.
2011 W Xavier +11, W Syracuse +4, L UNC-18.
2010 L Washington-2.
2009 W Utah State +1, L Mizzou-4.
Georgetown:
GU is 50-6 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
GU is 9-5 vs majors.
GU is 7-0 vs midmajors.
The Hoyas are 34-1 vs lower conferences.
GU major wins were:
UCLA +8, Tennessee +1, Texas +23, Alabama +2, Mizzou +OT, NC State +15, Duke +12, Washington +8, Maryland +27.
GU major losses were:
Indiana-OT, Kansas-4, Temple-3, Duke-9, Tennessee-12.
Hoya midmajor wins were:
Duquesne +6, Memphis +OT, Memphis +17, Temple +1, Butler +7, Memphis +OT, Wichita State +8.
The Hoyas have no midmajor losses.
The Hoyas have 1 lower conference loss:
Old Dominion-4.
In the NCAAs:
2013 L Fla Gulf Coast-10.
2012 W Belmont +15, L NC State-3.
2011 L VCU-18.
2010 L Ohio Univ-14.
Last edited by billyjack on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Providence
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by billyjack » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:16 pm
SETON HALL, DePAUL and CREIGHTON:
Seton Hall:
Seton Hall is 46-14 ooc in the past five years (regular season).
The Hall is 6-6 vs majors... 3 of those losses went to OT.
The Hall is 7-6 vs midmajors.
The Pirates are 33-2 vs lower conferences.
Seton Hall wins vs majors were:
Wake +4, Auburn +22, Wake +14, Alabama +5, Va Tech +4, Southern Cal +2.
Seton Hall losses vs majors were:
Washington-OT, LSU-5 (Hall had been up 16), Northwestern-7, Clemson-OT, Arkansas-9, Va Tech-OT.
Seton Hall wins vs midmajors were:
Rhody +5, Dayton +5, St Joe's +8, UMass +25, UMass +18, VCU +15, Cornell +24 (Cornell's Sweet 16 year).
Seton Hall losses vs midmajors were:
Temple-6, Xavier-5, Dayton-4, Richmond-8, Temple-6, Memphis-14.
The 2 losses to lower conferences were:
James Madison-6, IUPUI-2.
DePaul:
DePaul is 38-23 ooc in the past five years (regular season).
DePaul is 4-10 vs majors.
DePaul is 4-3 vs midmajors.
The Blue Demons are 30-10 vs lower conferences.
DePaul wins vs majors were:
Auburn +4, Arizona State +17, Arizona State +4, Texas Tech +6.
DePaul losses vs majors were:
Minnesota-1, Ole Miss-2, Stanford-OT, Oklahoma State-4, Vandy-13, Mississippi State-31, Tennessee-4, Cal-10, Northwestern-27, UCLA-18.
DePaul wins vs midmajors were:
Northern Iowa +8, St Joe's +7, Indiana State +5, Saint Louis +4.
DePaul losses vs midmajors were:
Wichita State-13, Indiana State-22, Creighton-8.
DePaul losses to lower conferences were:
Gardner-Webb-12, Western Kentucky-9, Loyola-Chicago-8, Milwaukee-11, Cal-Northridge-22, Ball State-OT, Western Carolina-5, American-5, Florida Gulf Coast-3, Morgan State-4.
Creighton:
Creighton is 47-16 ooc (Missouri Valley) in the past five years (regular season).
Creighton is 9-5 vs majors.
Creighton was 61-29 vs their Missouri Valley compatriots.
Creighton was 6-8 vs midmajors (not including MVC teams).
The Bluejays were 32-3 vs lower conferences.
CU wins vs majors were:
Wisconsin +10, Arizona State +14, Nebraska +22, Cal +10, Iowa +23, Nebraska +10, Northwestern +8, Nebraska +6, DePaul +8.
CU losses vs majors were:
Iowa State-3, Northwestern-13, Nebraska-5, Michigan-OT, Nebraska-2.
Bluejay wins vs midmajors not in the MVC were:
St Joe's +29, San Diego State +2, St Joe's +7, Dayton +18, St Joe's +11, New Mexico +7.
Bluejay losses vs midmajors not in the MVC were:
Boise State-13, St Mary's-8, St Joe's-9, Brigham Young-12, Dayton-10, Xavier-13, George Mason-3, New Mexico-5.
Creighton losses to lower conferences were:
Akron-9, Iona-8, Ark-Little Rock-2.
Creighton in the NCAA's:
2013, W Cincinnati +4, L Duke-16.
2012, W Alabama +1, L UNC-14.
Seton Hall:
Seton Hall is 46-14 ooc in the past five years (regular season).
The Hall is 6-6 vs majors... 3 of those losses went to OT.
The Hall is 7-6 vs midmajors.
The Pirates are 33-2 vs lower conferences.
Seton Hall wins vs majors were:
Wake +4, Auburn +22, Wake +14, Alabama +5, Va Tech +4, Southern Cal +2.
Seton Hall losses vs majors were:
Washington-OT, LSU-5 (Hall had been up 16), Northwestern-7, Clemson-OT, Arkansas-9, Va Tech-OT.
Seton Hall wins vs midmajors were:
Rhody +5, Dayton +5, St Joe's +8, UMass +25, UMass +18, VCU +15, Cornell +24 (Cornell's Sweet 16 year).
Seton Hall losses vs midmajors were:
Temple-6, Xavier-5, Dayton-4, Richmond-8, Temple-6, Memphis-14.
The 2 losses to lower conferences were:
James Madison-6, IUPUI-2.
DePaul:
DePaul is 38-23 ooc in the past five years (regular season).
DePaul is 4-10 vs majors.
DePaul is 4-3 vs midmajors.
The Blue Demons are 30-10 vs lower conferences.
DePaul wins vs majors were:
Auburn +4, Arizona State +17, Arizona State +4, Texas Tech +6.
DePaul losses vs majors were:
Minnesota-1, Ole Miss-2, Stanford-OT, Oklahoma State-4, Vandy-13, Mississippi State-31, Tennessee-4, Cal-10, Northwestern-27, UCLA-18.
DePaul wins vs midmajors were:
Northern Iowa +8, St Joe's +7, Indiana State +5, Saint Louis +4.
DePaul losses vs midmajors were:
Wichita State-13, Indiana State-22, Creighton-8.
DePaul losses to lower conferences were:
Gardner-Webb-12, Western Kentucky-9, Loyola-Chicago-8, Milwaukee-11, Cal-Northridge-22, Ball State-OT, Western Carolina-5, American-5, Florida Gulf Coast-3, Morgan State-4.
Creighton:
Creighton is 47-16 ooc (Missouri Valley) in the past five years (regular season).
Creighton is 9-5 vs majors.
Creighton was 61-29 vs their Missouri Valley compatriots.
Creighton was 6-8 vs midmajors (not including MVC teams).
The Bluejays were 32-3 vs lower conferences.
CU wins vs majors were:
Wisconsin +10, Arizona State +14, Nebraska +22, Cal +10, Iowa +23, Nebraska +10, Northwestern +8, Nebraska +6, DePaul +8.
CU losses vs majors were:
Iowa State-3, Northwestern-13, Nebraska-5, Michigan-OT, Nebraska-2.
Bluejay wins vs midmajors not in the MVC were:
St Joe's +29, San Diego State +2, St Joe's +7, Dayton +18, St Joe's +11, New Mexico +7.
Bluejay losses vs midmajors not in the MVC were:
Boise State-13, St Mary's-8, St Joe's-9, Brigham Young-12, Dayton-10, Xavier-13, George Mason-3, New Mexico-5.
Creighton losses to lower conferences were:
Akron-9, Iona-8, Ark-Little Rock-2.
Creighton in the NCAA's:
2013, W Cincinnati +4, L Duke-16.
2012, W Alabama +1, L UNC-14.
Last edited by billyjack on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Providence
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by billyjack » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:18 pm
VILLANOVA, ST JOHN'S, XAVIER and BUTLER:
Villanova:
Villanova is 51-12 occ in the past 5 years (regular season).
VU is 6-4 vs majors.
VU is 15-7 vs midmajors.
VU is 30-1 vs low conferences.
Villanova wins vs majors were:
Purdue +OT, Vandy +10, UCLA +12, Maryland +8, Ole Miss +12, Maryland +9.
Villanova losses vs majors were:
Alabama-22, Mizzou-10, Tennessee-10, Texas-9.
Villanova wins vs midmajors were:
St Joe's +4, LaSalle +OT, LaSalle +3, Temple +4, St Joe's +11, George Mason +1, Dayton +6, LaSalle +18, St Joe's +8, Fordham +38, Fordham +39, Rhody +13, St Joe's +3, LaSalle +11, Temple +17.
Villanova losses vs midmajors were:
Temple-15, LaSalle-OT, Saint Louis-12, Santa Clara-1, Temple-11, St Joe's-16, Temple-10.
The 1 Villanova lower conference loss was:
Columbia-18.
Villanova in the NCAAs:
2013, L UNC-7.
2011, L George Mason-4.
2010, W Robert Morris +OT, L St Mary's-8.
2009, W American +13, W UCLA +20, W Duke +23, W Pitt +2, L UNC-14.
St John's:
St John's is 42-20 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
St John's is 6-11 vs majors.
St John's is 5-5 vs midmajors.
The Johnnies are 31-4 vs lower conference teams.
Johnnies wins vs majors were:
South Carolina +24, UCLA +3, Duke +15, Northwestern +17, Arizona State +9, Georgia +10.
Johnnies losses vs majors were:
Baylor-19, Duke-7, Kentucky-22, aTm-1, Arizona-9, UCLA-7, Duke-9, Duke-7, Miami (Fla)-14, Virginia Tech-14, Boston College-12.
Johnnies wins vs midmajors were:
Fordham +11, Fordham +6, Fordham +17, Temple +7, St Bonaventure +1.
Johnnies losses vs midmajors were:
San Francisco-16, St Bonaventure-1, Fordham-3, St Mary's-5, Cornell-5 (Big Red Sweet 16 year).
St John's 4 lower conference losses were:
Murray State-5, Unc-Asheville-7, Northeastern-14, Detroit Mercy-6.
St John's in the NCAAs:
2011, L Gonzaga-15.
Xavier:
Xavier is 46-23 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
Xavier is 18-11 vs majors.
Xavier was 60-20 vs their A-10 compatriots.
Xavier was 5-5 vs all other midmajors (not including A-10 games).
The Musketeers were 23-7 vs lower conferences.
XU wins vs majors were:
Purdue +6, Georgia +14, Vandy +OT, Purdue +3, Cincinnati +23, Iowa +13, Seton Hall +5, Wake Forest +8, Georgia +8, Florida +12, Cincinnati +OT, LSU +24, Mizzou +4, Virginia Tech +OT, Auburn +7, Cincinnati +10, Virginia +14, LSU +10.
XU losses vs majors were:
Wake Forest-7, Tennessee-4, Cincinnati-15, Vandy-OT, Florida-4, Cincinnati-20, Marquette-10, Baylor-5, Kansas State-15, Wake Forest-OT, Duke-18.
Xavier wins vs midmajors were:
Memphis +2, Drake +4, Butler +12, Creighton +13, Memphis +5.
Xavier losses vs midmajors were:
Gonzaga-7, Memphis-4, Gonzaga-10, Butler-1, Butler-9.
The 7 Xavier losses to lower conferences were:
Pacific-3, Wofford-1, Oral Roberts-22, Long Beach State-10, Hawaii-OT, Miami (Ohio)-11, Old Dominion-9.
Xavier in the NCAAs:
2012, W Notre Dame +4, W Lehigh +12, L Baylor-5.
2011, L Marquette-11.
2010, W Minnesota +11, W Pitt +3, L Kansas State-OT.
2009, W Portland State +18, W Wisconsin +11, L Pitt-5.
Butler:
Butler is 46-16 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
Butler is 14-9 vs majors.
Butler was 57-15 in 4 years of Horizon League play.
Butler was 11-5 in their 1 year in the A-10.
Butler was 10-5 vs ooc midmajors.
The Bulldogs were 22-2 vs lower conference teams.
Butler wins vs majors were:
Marquette +1, North Carolina +11, Northwestern +9, Indiana +OT, Vandy +19, Stanford +5, Purdue +2, Stanford +33, Florida State +3, Washington State +16, Northwestern +13, UCLA +2, Ohio State +8, Northwestern +4.
Butler losses vs majors were:
Illinois-17, Louisville-16, Indiana-16, Louisville-15, Duke-12, Minnesota-9, Clemson-1, Georgetown-7, Ohio State-3.
Butler wins vs ooc midmajors were:
Gonzaga +1, Evansville +8, Indiana State +21, Utah +12, Xavier +1, Evansville +4, Drake +10, Evansville +16, Bradley +12, Xavier +9.
Butler losses vs ooc midmajors were:
Xavier-12, Gonzaga-16, Evansville-OT, Xavier-2, Evansville-OT.
The 2 Butler losses vs lower conferences were:
Ball State-3, UAB-10.
Butler in the NCAAs:
2013, W Bucknell +12, L Marquette-2.
2011, W Old Dominion +2, W Pitt +1, W Wisconsin +7, W Florida +OT, W VCU +8, L Connecticut-12.
2010, W UTEP +18, W Murray State +2, W Syracuse +4, W Kansas State +7, W Michigan State +2, L Duke-2
Villanova:
Villanova is 51-12 occ in the past 5 years (regular season).
VU is 6-4 vs majors.
VU is 15-7 vs midmajors.
VU is 30-1 vs low conferences.
Villanova wins vs majors were:
Purdue +OT, Vandy +10, UCLA +12, Maryland +8, Ole Miss +12, Maryland +9.
Villanova losses vs majors were:
Alabama-22, Mizzou-10, Tennessee-10, Texas-9.
Villanova wins vs midmajors were:
St Joe's +4, LaSalle +OT, LaSalle +3, Temple +4, St Joe's +11, George Mason +1, Dayton +6, LaSalle +18, St Joe's +8, Fordham +38, Fordham +39, Rhody +13, St Joe's +3, LaSalle +11, Temple +17.
Villanova losses vs midmajors were:
Temple-15, LaSalle-OT, Saint Louis-12, Santa Clara-1, Temple-11, St Joe's-16, Temple-10.
The 1 Villanova lower conference loss was:
Columbia-18.
Villanova in the NCAAs:
2013, L UNC-7.
2011, L George Mason-4.
2010, W Robert Morris +OT, L St Mary's-8.
2009, W American +13, W UCLA +20, W Duke +23, W Pitt +2, L UNC-14.
St John's:
St John's is 42-20 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
St John's is 6-11 vs majors.
St John's is 5-5 vs midmajors.
The Johnnies are 31-4 vs lower conference teams.
Johnnies wins vs majors were:
South Carolina +24, UCLA +3, Duke +15, Northwestern +17, Arizona State +9, Georgia +10.
Johnnies losses vs majors were:
Baylor-19, Duke-7, Kentucky-22, aTm-1, Arizona-9, UCLA-7, Duke-9, Duke-7, Miami (Fla)-14, Virginia Tech-14, Boston College-12.
Johnnies wins vs midmajors were:
Fordham +11, Fordham +6, Fordham +17, Temple +7, St Bonaventure +1.
Johnnies losses vs midmajors were:
San Francisco-16, St Bonaventure-1, Fordham-3, St Mary's-5, Cornell-5 (Big Red Sweet 16 year).
St John's 4 lower conference losses were:
Murray State-5, Unc-Asheville-7, Northeastern-14, Detroit Mercy-6.
St John's in the NCAAs:
2011, L Gonzaga-15.
Xavier:
Xavier is 46-23 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
Xavier is 18-11 vs majors.
Xavier was 60-20 vs their A-10 compatriots.
Xavier was 5-5 vs all other midmajors (not including A-10 games).
The Musketeers were 23-7 vs lower conferences.
XU wins vs majors were:
Purdue +6, Georgia +14, Vandy +OT, Purdue +3, Cincinnati +23, Iowa +13, Seton Hall +5, Wake Forest +8, Georgia +8, Florida +12, Cincinnati +OT, LSU +24, Mizzou +4, Virginia Tech +OT, Auburn +7, Cincinnati +10, Virginia +14, LSU +10.
XU losses vs majors were:
Wake Forest-7, Tennessee-4, Cincinnati-15, Vandy-OT, Florida-4, Cincinnati-20, Marquette-10, Baylor-5, Kansas State-15, Wake Forest-OT, Duke-18.
Xavier wins vs midmajors were:
Memphis +2, Drake +4, Butler +12, Creighton +13, Memphis +5.
Xavier losses vs midmajors were:
Gonzaga-7, Memphis-4, Gonzaga-10, Butler-1, Butler-9.
The 7 Xavier losses to lower conferences were:
Pacific-3, Wofford-1, Oral Roberts-22, Long Beach State-10, Hawaii-OT, Miami (Ohio)-11, Old Dominion-9.
Xavier in the NCAAs:
2012, W Notre Dame +4, W Lehigh +12, L Baylor-5.
2011, L Marquette-11.
2010, W Minnesota +11, W Pitt +3, L Kansas State-OT.
2009, W Portland State +18, W Wisconsin +11, L Pitt-5.
Butler:
Butler is 46-16 ooc in the past 5 years (regular season).
Butler is 14-9 vs majors.
Butler was 57-15 in 4 years of Horizon League play.
Butler was 11-5 in their 1 year in the A-10.
Butler was 10-5 vs ooc midmajors.
The Bulldogs were 22-2 vs lower conference teams.
Butler wins vs majors were:
Marquette +1, North Carolina +11, Northwestern +9, Indiana +OT, Vandy +19, Stanford +5, Purdue +2, Stanford +33, Florida State +3, Washington State +16, Northwestern +13, UCLA +2, Ohio State +8, Northwestern +4.
Butler losses vs majors were:
Illinois-17, Louisville-16, Indiana-16, Louisville-15, Duke-12, Minnesota-9, Clemson-1, Georgetown-7, Ohio State-3.
Butler wins vs ooc midmajors were:
Gonzaga +1, Evansville +8, Indiana State +21, Utah +12, Xavier +1, Evansville +4, Drake +10, Evansville +16, Bradley +12, Xavier +9.
Butler losses vs ooc midmajors were:
Xavier-12, Gonzaga-16, Evansville-OT, Xavier-2, Evansville-OT.
The 2 Butler losses vs lower conferences were:
Ball State-3, UAB-10.
Butler in the NCAAs:
2013, W Bucknell +12, L Marquette-2.
2011, W Old Dominion +2, W Pitt +1, W Wisconsin +7, W Florida +OT, W VCU +8, L Connecticut-12.
2010, W UTEP +18, W Murray State +2, W Syracuse +4, W Kansas State +7, W Michigan State +2, L Duke-2
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billyjack - Moderator
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by billyjack » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:49 pm
BillEsq wrote:There is so much wrong with this study it hurts....
I'll try to explain my reasoning below. I specifically call out each game vs the teams I referred to as "majors" and "midmajors", plus teams from the "lower" conferences. Each game is shown under each school.
BillEsq wrote:1. It is not amazing to have a 90% win over teams from weak conference aka buy games... These games are nearly always home games and well they are buy games for a reason.
I agree that a .900 winning pct is not a big accomplishment. I just put the numbers on the paper. [For others reading these comments-- on the other site, I also did numbers for 4 ACC teams-- this showed some really great number for BC vs majors, but awful losses vs "lower conference teams" like -18 pt loss to Holy Cross and -15 pt loss to Boston University by BC; and another ACC team lost to Kennesaw State by -17 and Stetson by -10.]
BillEsq wrote:2. The subjective classification of a major/midmajor/ everyone else always leads to troubling statistics and faulty math to anything built upon it. You can argue for or against the merits of the various stat machines but its always better to rank your OOC based on RPI sagrin or another more objective system. I suggest using the RPI as it is what powers the selecting committee (for better or worse).
The RPI has serious, serious flaws. Among other things, road game wins are completely overrated. It also puts way too much value in beating a school ranked #220 compared to #320... in my opinion, any win over a team higher than around #180 is pretty much equal. Otherwise, major schools sit on pins and needles in February hoping that Sacred Heart can beat St Francis (PA) in a meaningless game in the NEC on a Thursday night [you know how it goes, can RPI #263 Bryant beat #297 Monmouth tonight to climb higher than RPI #251 CSU-Northridge, who is on the road against the #305 UC-Irvine Anteaters... an Anteater win will put Providence in a better bubble spot than Arizona State (because CSU-Northridge beat Washington State in November by 2, and Washington State split with Arizona State), but let's hope also that #342 Lipscomb can hold off #221 Bethune-Cookman].
Also, this compilation isn't trying to out-do any other rating system. It's not a system at all. It's a compilation of numbers and results. I also took the 12 seconds that's required to figure out winning percentages. Do whatever you'd like with this information. You don't think it's a good thing that our 3 newest members have excellent records vs "Majors"...?
BillEsq wrote:3. The subjective classification of everyone else excluding the 4 "midmajors" into a lump of nondescript outside of a few localized teams (based on the writers entirely subjective reasoning). This writer obviously has something against BC. Somehow Cornell in one season makes mid major status while BC gets punished for loosing to a Harvard Team that for the past few years has been in and out of the top 25 in Boston- essentially a neutral site game. He also points out BCs losses to the Terriers another Boston Cross town game. The Terriers have also been pretty decent the past 5 years. In short poor overwhelmed Fordham in the A-10 is classified as a mid major win for X while, the BU loss is punished as a BC bad loss. I could go on and on but to put an 0-27 grambling state in the same class as top 25 team is pretty wild.
Ok, fine, this might be a flaw. I follow up by specifying each game vs "midmajors" and each loss vs "lowers". I assume people can read six lines below to see the Fordham games listed. Also, for each Fordham game vs St John's, there is a Duke game for St John's. The sample size isn't huge, but it is significant overall. Cornell made the Sweet Sixteen, whereas Harvard didn't, but I understand your point. The midmajors were limited to the A-10, Missouri Valley, Mountain West and West Coast Conference (conferences that typically get multiple bids). I also included Memphis, Butler (in the Horizon), George Mason, and VCU (in the CAA) as midmajors. Hey, it's not perfect. The Boston University argument is pretty bad-- 700 people show up to their games and they're in the America East. And BC actually has great numbers vs Majors, which the list clearly shows. The also have horrible losses, like complete blowouts, vs Holy Cross and BU, lost 5 straight to Harvard, 36 to UMass...
BillEsq wrote:4. Freaking OOC SOS is built off of the quality of your best opponents. You can't say that at home we have a 900 winning percentage against the lil sisters of the poor so obviously we are the best basketball conference. See previous SEC scheduling logic.
Ok, don't focus on the .900 pct... instead look at the pct vs Majors then.
BillEsq wrote:5. In five years the BE teams have played less than 5 mid majors and 3 majors a season. That folks equates out to your neutral site tournament, the BE/SEC challenge, Nova's Big 5 games and one or two scheduled home and homes. There you go. Heck the SEC challenge are basically free wins as long as you avoid UK and Florida
The SEC is bad right now, but everyone considers them a Major conference. The wins vs Majors are clearly indicated, so readers can see the exact results.
BillEsq wrote:LOL see what happens when you use subjective definitions to define your own greatness. Personally i think the BE will be one of the top conferences next year. However any success or failure will have 0 to do with the facts described on that study/post
I started this list to see how the 10 of us fared against the 5 other so-called "major" conferences (actually, I looked at Seton Hall to start (because for some reason they get unfairly criticized), and the Pirates results looked pretty solid, at least as good as a run-of-the-mill non-criticized ACC team). The numbers looked great, especially compared to what a lot of anti-Big East people were claiming. I then expanded my list to the Atlantic-10 games, and then what I subjectively (and many others) consider to be midmajor conferences... leagues that typically get multiple bids... that usually includes the WCC, MVC, A-10 and Mountain West... again I included Memphis from the 1-bid CUSA, and George Mason from the 1-bid CAA. I couldn't justify including Towson and William & Mary in the midmajor group. Fordham might be the only undeserving midmajor school, but the A-10 is an excellent league otherwise, so they get included.
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billyjack - Moderator
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by Omaha1 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:37 pm
I'm sure this took a lot of effort so hanks for putting your time into doing this. I find it really interesting.
Nebraska by birth, Creighton by choice.
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by DumpsterFireA10 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:14 pm
Saw this list earlier. Very good work.
Also plays into my screen name too.
Thanks for unintended consequences.
Also plays into my screen name too.
Thanks for unintended consequences.
Big East Basketball is what it's always been. Great competition nightly.
If the Atlantic 10 didn't suck, why is everyone looking for the exits?
There is a reason why the A-10 left a team in the Central Time Zone...SLU, your move.
If the Atlantic 10 didn't suck, why is everyone looking for the exits?
There is a reason why the A-10 left a team in the Central Time Zone...SLU, your move.
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Re: Master List of Big East Schools OOC In Last 5 Years...
by BillEsq » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:13 am
Jack, now that i've seen the rest of your posts i acknowledge that you put a lot of work into it and it is a job well done.
My initial critique was based upon a post that generalized majors, mid majors and the field. You properly addressed this as a flaw and your in depth subsequent posting allows for others to see who they played which helps clear things up.
I focused on the weakest conferences because that was what EPR JR focused on in his post. I was responding to his post not necessarily yours in that regard. I don't want to belabor defending BC who by all accounts was not a good team last year but a loss for BC to Holy Cross or BU is quite different than a loss by a BE team to the same squads. One they are cross town games so there is no home court advantage. Second I think BU put several NCAA qualifying teams on the floor during that time period as did Holy Cross one year.
I agree that there are serious flaws with the RPI but I think classifying teams as top 50 teams, top 100 teams, top 200 teams and the rest works a bit better than major/mid major/field. Lets face it last year a field team Davidson was heads over heals better than Evansville who was clearly better than Auburn. The joy of college hoops is that i could come up with dozens of situations where weaker is better than mid-major who is better than Auburn. While no system is perfect i do think that RPI/Sagrin or one of a 100 others (not BPI) could be used. I only suggest RPI as it is what the NCAA uses.
Overall now that i have seen the details of your subsequent posts i am impressed at the amount of time and effort you put into your review. I withdraw any negative criticism
My initial critique was based upon a post that generalized majors, mid majors and the field. You properly addressed this as a flaw and your in depth subsequent posting allows for others to see who they played which helps clear things up.
I focused on the weakest conferences because that was what EPR JR focused on in his post. I was responding to his post not necessarily yours in that regard. I don't want to belabor defending BC who by all accounts was not a good team last year but a loss for BC to Holy Cross or BU is quite different than a loss by a BE team to the same squads. One they are cross town games so there is no home court advantage. Second I think BU put several NCAA qualifying teams on the floor during that time period as did Holy Cross one year.
I agree that there are serious flaws with the RPI but I think classifying teams as top 50 teams, top 100 teams, top 200 teams and the rest works a bit better than major/mid major/field. Lets face it last year a field team Davidson was heads over heals better than Evansville who was clearly better than Auburn. The joy of college hoops is that i could come up with dozens of situations where weaker is better than mid-major who is better than Auburn. While no system is perfect i do think that RPI/Sagrin or one of a 100 others (not BPI) could be used. I only suggest RPI as it is what the NCAA uses.
Overall now that i have seen the details of your subsequent posts i am impressed at the amount of time and effort you put into your review. I withdraw any negative criticism
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