Big East needs another Nova, who will it be?

[scoscox]

Don't get me wrong I think Xavier will be fine as a program but we are talking Final 4/Championship here which Xavier has never made. To get up to the level where Nova is currently at will take a lot of things going in the right direction and a lot of luck.[/quote]

Which things will we need to get going in the right direction and need correction that will change your outlook? I am genuinely curious here.

[scoscox]

Scoscox, curious... in your opinion, what does Nova have to do to be an "established power"?

That might not be the best wording I could have chosen, but there is still a gap between Villanova and the true blue bloods of other conferences (Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.) Those teams all have more final fours with just their current coaches than Nova does all time, so I think there is still a gap there. Jay Wright has done a lot to change that and since he has taken over, Nova has undoubtedly been one of the best in the country year in and year out. You still have plenty to hang over a Xavier fan's head, but that's how I see it.

I think it is somewhat borne out in recruiting as well. The guys you're capable of pulling in says a lot about your program and I think Nova's recruiting is not indicative of what would be considered a powerhouse. I'm really not trying to knock Nova here, but from an objective standpoint that's where my viewpoint comes from.

[Bill Marsh]

Whether Villanova wins a national championship or not this league will be fine. I think the inferiority complex needs to go...

How often does a PAC-12 team win it all?

It's been 20 years.

How often does B10 team win it all?

Once in 30 years.

or a SEC team besides Kentucky?

Only Florida and Arkansas.

Even a B12 team?

Kansas . . .

Those are still strong conference and respected.

At the end of the day... the B.E has demonstrated it will continue to be in the running as the best college basketball conference... very least TOP 3. That is unlikely to change

I knew the answers. I just wanted people to realize that the Big East is in good shape. This fan base needs to relax and just enjoy the great basketball being played. You cannot win every year (and this March may be full of surprises for the B.E). That doesn't mean your league needs to start looking for options or replacements. This league has a lot of on court success, tradition, and recruits at a high level to keep it alive for the long haul

Yeah, I knew that you know the answers. I just didn't know if everyone else did. I thought you were making a great point. It's really striking how much the P5 schools are taken for granted without really earning it.

In the last 15 years, UCLA is the only PAC-12 school to have gone to the Final Four, and the conference hasn't had a national champion in 20 years. That's really striking for a "power" conference. Last year Oklahoma became only the 2nd team from the Big XII to get to the F4 in the past dozen years. "Power"? Giving them their due, the B1G gets to the tournament almost every year, but except for Michigan State 17 years ago, they have to go back to the '70's and '80's to talk about national champions just like the Big East. (Unless they want to talk about Maryland's title when they were in the ACC.)

The ACC is obviously special, but no one else really has much more to brag about than the Big East does.

[Novachap]

Scoscox, curious... in your opinion, what does Nova have to do to be an "established power"?

That might not be the best wording I could have chosen, but there is still a gap between Villanova and the true blue bloods of other conferences (Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.) Those teams all have more final fours with just their current coaches than Nova does all time, so I think there is still a gap there. Jay Wright has done a lot to change that and since he has taken over, Nova has undoubtedly been one of the best in the country year in and year out. You still have plenty to hang over a Xavier fan's head, but that's how I see it.

I think it is somewhat borne out in recruiting as well. The guys you're capable of pulling in says a lot about your program and I think Nova's recruiting is not indicative of what would be considered a powerhouse. I'm really not trying to knock Nova here, but from an objective standpoint that's where my viewpoint comes from.

Fair enough... wasnt picking a fight. Was curious.

[Bill Marsh]

Scoscox, curious... in your opinion, what does Nova have to do to be an "established power"?

That might not be the best wording I could have chosen, but there is still a gap between Villanova and the true blue bloods of other conferences (Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.) Those teams all have more final fours with just their current coaches than Nova does all time, so I think there is still a gap there. Jay Wright has done a lot to change that and since he has taken over, Nova has undoubtedly been one of the best in the country year in and year out. You still have plenty to hang over a Xavier fan's head, but that's how I see it.

I think it is somewhat borne out in recruiting as well. The guys you're capable of pulling in says a lot about your program and I think Nova's recruiting is not indicative of what would be considered a powerhouse. I'm really not trying to knock Nova here, but from an objective standpoint that's where my viewpoint comes from.

Current coaches vs Villanova all time:

Villanova - 4 Final Fours, 2 NC's
Coach K - 12 Final Fours, 5 NC's
Bill Self -- 2 Final Fours, 1 NC
Calipari -- 4 Final Fours, 1 NC
Roy Williams - 4 Final Fours, 2 NC's

So except for Coach K, a legend, maybe the point was a little exaggerated. But hyperbole is okay to make a point. I just think that Villanova has in fact become a special program. Not a blue blood, but still special. They're in the next tier of programs behind the blue bloods.

What makes Villanova special?

1. They stand out when we talk about programs that have had recent success. Within the past decade the only programs that have been to multiple Final Fours and have won a championship are Villanova, Duke, UConn, Louisville, Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas, and Florida. That's a pretty select group.

2. Look who's missing from that list: blue bloods Indiana and UCLA. They are fading programs with a past. Villanova is an emerging program with a future.

3. Two national championships in the "open" era (1975-present) puts them in a pretty select group. Here's the list of schools who have repeated as national champs since 1975:

Villanova (1985, 2016)
UCLA (1975, 1995)
Indiana (1976, 1981, 1987)
Kentucky (1978, 1996, 1998, 2012)
Michigan State (1979, 2000)
Louisville (1980, 1986, 2013)
North Carolina (1982, 1993, 2005, 2009)
Kansas (1988, 2008)
Duke (1991, 1992, 2001, 2010, 2015)
UConn (1999, 2004, 2011, 2014)
Florida. (2006, 2007)

Only 10 besides Villanova. And UCLA and Michigan State have to reach all the way back to the '70's to even get on the list.

4. That's a major accomplishment. Not on the list are "name" programs like Syracuse, Georgetown, Temple, Arizona, Ohio State, and Michigan.

[Bluejay]

Honestly, I think we are closer than this thread seems to indicate. If Creighton and Xavier do not suffer the injuries to their PGs, they are probably both legitimate Final Four candidates.

[Xudash]

Scoscox, curious... in your opinion, what does Nova have to do to be an "established power"?

Respecting that this question wasn't directed to me, allow me opine that Nova IS an established power. I can't see any other way of looking at it than looking at it like that.

[BEhomer]

I like Butler near term. Largely because of their PG. They also have a strong recruiting class next season. if Kelan Martin finds his old form they could be a special team next year.

[gtmoBlue]

Novachap wrote:
Scoscox, curious... in your opinion, what does Nova have to do to be an "established power"?

scoscox wrote: That might not be the best wording I could have chosen, but there is still a gap between Villanova and the true blue bloods of other conferences (Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.) Those teams all have more final fours with just their current coaches than Nova does all time, so I think there is still a gap there. Jay Wright has done a lot to change that and since he has taken over, Nova has undoubtedly been one of the best in the country year in and year out. You still have plenty to hang over a Xavier fan's head, but that's how I see it.

I think it is somewhat borne out in recruiting as well. The guys you're capable of pulling in says a lot about your program and I think Nova's recruiting is not indicative of what would be considered a powerhouse. I'm really not trying to knock Nova here, but from an objective standpoint that's where my viewpoint comes from.

Nova's an elite program - sustained high level win percentages, conference dominance, consistent NCAA participant, and a fresh Natty. Damn their asses.

Nova's recruiting is purposeful. Coach Wright has previously pulled in 5-star guys and high 4-star guys...that were not a fit for the program or his team. He has purposefully returned to recruiting for "fit" for the program. Several articles last season addressed this very issue. I think that Brunson and others fit the high-level player profile AND are a good fit for the program. Nice reach scosox, but your slide into home fell just a foot or 2 short - You're OUT!

I'm not at all delighted by the notion of 3-6 nationally active, dominant, and winning programs within the conference. I'm not really sure I would tolerate 4 on a consistent basis. However, if the BE has 3 or more high level teams, I will have to live with it - as long as the Jays continue to be in the mix. If this is the desired scenario, then where the heck is St Louis and St Bonnies to pad the bottom a bit.
(Calling JPSchmack, calling Mr Schmack, pls pickup the white courtesy telephone...)


Yo Bluejay: you are correct in your perception that CU is closer than given credit in this thread. Kayako ably pointed out the the 3 newbies are making leaps and bounds recruiting wise, since joining the BE. It is merely wishful thinking to exclude Creighton in this conversation of the upwardly mobile teams in the conference. These same savants will grow to hate my Jays as we do a Trump and take over the conference without a popular vote.

[kayako]

[quote="gtmoBlue"][quote]

Creighton may not have the recent success of Butler, or longer sustained success of Xavier, but I have no doubt the Jays are here to stay. Focus and coaching stability goes a long way for a program.

IMHO we do not need a "blue blood" program to be taken seriously. The old BE was widely considered the best BB conference in a lot of years, and it didn't have a single blue blood program in its core. We just need a couple more teams to take the next step, or return to where they were. Stockpile tourney credits, expand prudently, and we'll see where it takes us down the road.