2) Wednesday Big East Games 1/11/17

[Bill Marsh]

Frustrating loss. Delgado did dominate in the paint with 19 rebounds. It's pretty tough for him to make shots when he's getting fouled - including the ones that weren't called. There was one play in OT when even the announcers commented that he got fouled 3 times before they called a walk. Another time they swallowed their whistles and called the ball out of bounds when he was getting manhandled.

I was really impressed with how the Hall came back late in this game. His 13 offensive rebounds were incredible. Some of their kids made big time pressure shots with the game on the line. Cool customers. Kept their poise. They must have ice water in their veins. Good things will happen for this team.

The rebounds are just to be expected at this point lol. If Delgado finishes in the paint as he normally does, they win comfortably. I already made my point on the officiating in OT but I don't want to harp on it too much because that's not what beat the Pirates, they beat themselves with missed free throws and unforced turnovers. But yes, I was mainly referring to the plays you mentioned, what looked like a clean block sending MU to the line, and I thought (with admitted bias) that the play Carrington fouled out on was clearly a block.

19 rebounds are never expected. 13 offensive rebounds are never expected. Delgado was getting mauled inside all night. Fischer and Hauser both fouled out; Heldt had 4. We agree there were more that weren't called. That kind of physical beating takes its toll and leads to more missed shots in addition to the ones that were missed as the direct result of a foul.

I agree that the call on the Carrington block was outrageously bad and I believe that the replay clearly showed that. Home cookin'.

The Hall basically outplayed Marquette. They had an incredible 27 offensive rebounds, and advantage of 17 over Marquette.
There's no doubt that missed free throws hurt. So did the missed shots. Ultimately I think this game showed why it's hard to win on the road.

[Bill Marsh]

Frustrating loss. Delgado did dominate in the paint with 19 rebounds. It's pretty tough for him to make shots when he's getting fouled - including the ones that weren't called. There was one play in OT when even the announcers commented that he got fouled 3 times before they called a walk. Another time they swallowed their whistles and called the ball out of bounds when he was getting manhandled.

You're kidding, right? Marquette was called for 4 more fouls, SHU went to the line 6 more times, and Marquette's two starting bigs were both fouled out in regulation. At home. The last thing the refs did was make things tough for Seton Hall.

I'm again impressed with this Hall team. I didn't think they'd fall off much without Whitehead and they haven't. Absolutely a tough team. I think they'll get into the NCAAs with 9 or 10 league wins. I have no desire to see them again until next year. We just don't have enough up front, though adding John, Eke, Cain, and Froling should help with that.

No, I'm not kidding. Did you watch the game?

[Bill Marsh]

His free throws? That's about all Delgado did hit in regulation tonight, as terrible as he was in OT. Delgado was awful in the paint, hitting only 3-12 from the field. He should've been able to dominate OT with your bigs fouled out but was just off his game all night.

Frustrating loss. Delgado did dominate in the paint with 19 rebounds. It's pretty tough for him to make shots when he's getting fouled - including the ones that weren't called. There was one play in OT when even the announcers commented that he got fouled 3 times before they called a walk. Another time they swallowed their whistles and called the ball out of bounds when he was getting manhandled.

I was really impressed with how the Hall came back late in this game. His 13 offensive rebounds were incredible. Some of their kids made big time pressure shots with the game on the line. Cool customers. Kept their poise. They must have ice water in their veins. Good things will happen for this team.

lol at Hall complaining about bad calls in that game.

Also, the sequence you're referring to with the walk? Walk wasn't called, ball went out of bounds and went to Marquette. I forget which announcer said Delgado could have gotten 3 fouls called, but the other announcing came back and said something like "well Marquette fans would tell you he took 5 steps before that." I think that's what you were thinking of.

Yes, it was. The only reason he took any steps is that he was getting hammers with the 3 fouls. That one should have been an easy call.

[Hall2012]

Out of curiousity if you feel that you guys beat yourselves more than we beat you this time does that mean we beat ourselves more than you beat us last time?

I recall feeling that the end of the game was very sloppy and it felt like both teams were taking turns trying to give the game away, so my initial reaction would be that yes, it would be reasonable for them to feel that way.

After looking at the box score, it really doesn't look that bad for MU. The number that stands out is the 16 turnovers. How many of them could be considered unforced? I can't say I remember but likely at least a few.

[Hall2012]

I agree with not wanting to see you guys in the BET because unless it's the 4-5 game or the title game, it means one of us probably fell well short of where we want to be.

I disagree that the refs helped SHU more - straight foul and free throw counts are a poor way to judge that because a lot of it is reflected in the style of play. Marquette defended more aggressively and seemed to intentionally send Delgado to the line as a defensive strategy so that's naturally going to lead to a higher foul count.

As for SHU's free throws, they shot .07% over their average- that's nothing. Fact of the matter is they left 13 points at the stripe in an OT loss. Free throws have been a problem all year and it finally bit them in the ass. I'm not saying Marquette's hot shooting night wasn't a factor in the game - it was, as was SHU's particularly poor shooting night - but something as simple as hitting your free throws can make such a big difference.

To the former, there were a ton of uncalled slaps in the first half that SHU didn't have called while we had some ticky-tack stuff against us the other way. It's all fan perspective, but I wasn't so far from the court that I couldn't see the difference. 13-6 was the foul disparity in the first half. That's pretty stark, and it's not like we were mugging you guys and Delgado was some paragon of defensive restraint.

To the latter, if you expect to shoot 60% from the line and shoot marginally over that, you aren't leaving points at the line, those are points you expect to leave. I wouldn't say we left points at the free throw line, even though we actually shot well below our season average. If you guys had a real problem, it was not capitalizing on second chance points. Your offensive rebounding allowed you to take 8 more shots than we did, but you made two fewer. That was a far, far bigger problem than free throw percentage, which was really an inconsequential stat last night.

I felt there usually was a good mugging every time SHU got the ball in the paint. I just wish the refs chose to either call it tight or let them play. It felt like they changed it up every few minutes.

And I disagree with the second point. Poor free throw shooting doesn't excuse poor free throw shooting. I don't expect them to shoot 100%, but when you miss 40% of your free throws and just 1 more make would've changed the result, that's a tough pill to swallow. MU wasn't good in regulation either. If they lost that game, say Carrington's shot at the end of regulation was a 3, you probably would be saying Marquette left the game at the line.

[brewcity77]

I felt there usually was a good mugging every time SHU got the ball in the paint. I just wish the refs chose to either call it tight or let them play. It felt like they changed it up every few minutes.

And I disagree with the second point. Poor free throw shooting doesn't excuse poor free throw shooting. I don't expect them to shoot 100%, but when you miss 40% of your free throws and just 1 more make would've changed the result, that's a tough pill to swallow. MU wasn't good in regulation either. If they lost that game, say Carrington's shot at the end of regulation was a 3, you probably would be saying Marquette left the game at the line.

I can tell you, I wouldn't. Free throws, in my opinion, are rarely a deciding factor in a game. If Carrington's shot had been a three, the problem would have been the fact that we gave up 27 offensive rebounds and only managed to get to 23 defensive boards. Or that we again gave up offensive rebounds on missed free throws, giving you guys effectively more possessions. People remember free throws because there are more of them in the final minute or two, but in terms of what actually wins a game, they are far down the list.

When you take 8 more shots and make 2 fewer than your opponent, that's a recipe for disaster.

[MUBoxer]

Out of curiousity if you feel that you guys beat yourselves more than we beat you this time does that mean we beat ourselves more than you beat us last time?

I recall feeling that the end of the game was very sloppy and it felt like both teams were taking turns trying to give the game away, so my initial reaction would be that yes, it would be reasonable for them to feel that way.

After looking at the box score, it really doesn't look that bad for MU. The number that stands out is the 16 turnovers. How many of them could be considered unforced? I can't say I remember but likely at least a few.

So after looking at the box score when you win it's "it really doesn't look that bad for MU" but when you lose it's "the refs handed the game to them" "we gave that game away" dude the first game we had a lead with 30sec left and lost, this game we were up 7 with forty seconds and won, it's two evenly matched teams and Marquette just learned their lesson from the first game.

[Hall2012]

Out of curiousity if you feel that you guys beat yourselves more than we beat you this time does that mean we beat ourselves more than you beat us last time?

I recall feeling that the end of the game was very sloppy and it felt like both teams were taking turns trying to give the game away, so my initial reaction would be that yes, it would be reasonable for them to feel that way.

After looking at the box score, it really doesn't look that bad for MU. The number that stands out is the 16 turnovers. How many of them could be considered unforced? I can't say I remember but likely at least a few.

So after looking at the box score when you win it's "it really doesn't look that bad for MU" but when you lose it's "the refs handed the game to them" "we gave that game away" dude the first game we had a lead with 30sec left and lost, this game we were up 7 with forty seconds and won, it's two evenly matched teams and Marquette just learned their lesson from the first game.

Dude, you're overreacting to nothing.

A. I never said the refs handed you the game - while I had gripes with some calls in OT, I said SHU deservedly lost because of their own mistakes.
B. Why are you just ignoring the fact that I said it would be reasonable for Marquette to feel they beat themselves in the first game? It's like you're reaching for a reason to feel insulted.
C. When I talk about a team beating themselves, I'm referring to losing as a result of a large number of errors that the opponent has nothing to do with. Things like missed free throws. Things like unforced turnovers (eg. stepping out of bounds or throwing the ball away under little to no pressure). Those are things Seton Hall did in spades tonight and that's why I'm saying they beat themselves. It's not like I'm trashing Marquette, I'm just saying it's a frustrating loss because it would've been winnable if SHU didn't shoot themselves in the foot so many times.

[marquette]

As a general rule I find that extended discussions about officiating lead to nothing but mutual poor feelings. Most refs are doing the best they can on a given night and it may benefit one team or the other. My take away is that two teams that are very much evenly matched had two very good games and we are fortunate to have both won in front of the home fans.

[kmacker69]

If you are happy about how a game was called and your team played.... The other team got hosed on the calls!