2) Wednesday Big East Games 1/11/17

[milksteak]

1. Creighton is good. They are #8 in the country for a reason.
2. Creighton is a terrible matchup for Butler.
3. It was a road game during the week after an uninspiring performance against Georgetown.
4. Kelan is in a slump. He's been hot garbage in Big East play. Chrabascz really struggled last night too. Butler isn't gonna win when both of those guys have bad nights.

I'm not upset about the loss, and Butler fans shouldn't be. It just wasn't Butler's night, and I didn't expect it to be. I picked them to lose by 17 for a reason.

[milksteak]

Butler did hold Creighton to 27 points in the second half. Although I think part of that was due to Creighton losing focus a little bit the last 4 to 5 minutes with some silly turnovers (couple of lazy passes, backing up onto the half-court line, Mo not getting the ball past half court in ten seconds with nobody guarding him, and a couple of times just running the shot clock down but then not getting a very good shot). Still, no small part of that was some decent defense by Butler in the second half (also helped Creighton missed a whole bunch of wide open threes in the second half). Also, Butler did finally hit a stretch in the second half where it seemed like they scored on just about every possession for 8 to 10 possessions. Even with the double digit lead, I was not comfortable until the last 3 minutes. Should be a great matchup in Indy. Hoping we come with some new wrinkles to get Patton some more low-post touches. I don't think we did that near enough last night.

I think the game at Hinkle will be much closer. Should be a coin flip. This team seems unfocused and seems to be easily rattled on the road in conference play, which is very uncharacteristic of Holtmann's teams. Really haven't shown up in their three Big East road games. They were crap at Carnesecca, and they should've lost to Georgetown on Saturday.

I'm not too worried. I still think this is the best team Holtmann has had to date.

[aughnanure]

Thrilled that Marquette won (we needed that one badly), but the more and more I watch from this year's team (and even more so since Buzz left) we just don't seem to have a Big East roster. We are undersized, out-manned, lack toughness and seem to get out-hustled during most games. With only two traditional bigs in Fisher and Heldt, this was bound to be exploited this year, but Delgado just manhandled us in the paint. If he made his FTs tonight, SH wins easy.

How we won in OT minus Hauser and Fisher is beyond me. Good game Pirates! Hope we get a Round 3 in the BET!

His free throws? That's about all Delgado did hit in regulation tonight, as terrible as he was in OT. Delgado was awful in the paint, hitting only 3-12 from the field. He should've been able to dominate OT with your bigs fouled out but was just off his game all night.

Frustrating loss. Delgado did dominate in the paint with 19 rebounds. It's pretty tough for him to make shots when he's getting fouled - including the ones that weren't called. There was one play in OT when even the announcers commented that he got fouled 3 times before they called a walk. Another time they swallowed their whistles and called the ball out of bounds when he was getting manhandled.

I was really impressed with how the Hall came back late in this game. His 13 offensive rebounds were incredible. Some of their kids made big time pressure shots with the game on the line. Cool customers. Kept their poise. They must have ice water in their veins. Good things will happen for this team.

lol at Hall complaining about bad calls in that game.

Also, the sequence you're referring to with the walk? Walk wasn't called, ball went out of bounds and went to Marquette. I forget which announcer said Delgado could have gotten 3 fouls called, but the other announcing came back and said something like "well Marquette fans would tell you he took 5 steps before that." I think that's what you were thinking of.

[Hall2012]

lol at Hall complaining about bad calls in that game.

Also, the sequence you're referring to with the walk? Walk wasn't called, ball went out of bounds and went to Marquette. I forget which announcer said Delgado could have gotten 3 fouls called, but the other announcing came back and said something like "well Marquette fans would tell you he took 5 steps before that." I think that's what you were thinking of.

What's funny about it? Fans of all team complain about bad calls all the time. Both teams had plenty of gripes last night as the refs were inconsistent - they called a ton of fouls but also ignored some really obvious ones.

Some mistakes in OT certainly went against them, but like I said before the refs aren't why SHU lost- missed free throws and unforced turnovers are.

[aughnanure]

lol at Hall complaining about bad calls in that game.

Also, the sequence you're referring to with the walk? Walk wasn't called, ball went out of bounds and went to Marquette. I forget which announcer said Delgado could have gotten 3 fouls called, but the other announcing came back and said something like "well Marquette fans would tell you he took 5 steps before that." I think that's what you were thinking of.

What's funny about it? Fans of all team complain about bad calls all the time. Both teams had plenty of gripes last night as the refs were inconsistent - they called a ton of fouls but also ignored some really obvious ones.

Some mistakes in OT certainly went against them, but like I said before the refs aren't why SHU lost- missed free throws and unforced turnovers are.

I'm laughing because the first half was atrociously called in favor of the Hall. Refs weren't making the same calls from one side of the floor to the other at all. We have many fair and composed posters on the MU forum who have to call out the complainers when they just start bitching about the refs...but last night everyone was flabbergasted at what was happening. It was more event in the second half, but Seton Hall got away with playing significantly more physical (especially hand checks and bumps everywhere) the entire game. My point is refs were swallowing their whistles on a TON of Seton Hall reach-ins, rakes, over the backs, etc that I just kind of roll my eyes when I saw officiating mentioned immediately by Hall posters on here.

Also, the charge-block thing is too confusing to me anymore. Maybe that call was not correct on Carrington, but there were several others throughout the game where the MU defender had the space and the call was a charge.

[brewcity77]

What's funny about it? Fans of all team complain about bad calls all the time. Both teams had plenty of gripes last night as the refs were inconsistent - they called a ton of fouls but also ignored some really obvious ones.

Some mistakes in OT certainly went against them, but like I said before the refs aren't why SHU lost- missed free throws and unforced turnovers are.

As you said, the refs weren't the reason. I'd argue if the refs helped one team more, it was the road team that was called for fewer fouls and spent more time on the charity stripe. However, you didn't lose because of missed free throws. Your team shot over their average on the season from the line. It was Marquette's shooting. You guys absolutely murdered us on the boards and getting to the line, but our 54.8 to 45.8 eFG% advantage told the story of the game.

I'm glad we're done with you guys for the season, and really don't want a rubber match at MSG unless the Big East title is on the line.

[Hall2012]

lol at Hall complaining about bad calls in that game.

Also, the sequence you're referring to with the walk? Walk wasn't called, ball went out of bounds and went to Marquette. I forget which announcer said Delgado could have gotten 3 fouls called, but the other announcing came back and said something like "well Marquette fans would tell you he took 5 steps before that." I think that's what you were thinking of.

What's funny about it? Fans of all team complain about bad calls all the time. Both teams had plenty of gripes last night as the refs were inconsistent - they called a ton of fouls but also ignored some really obvious ones.

Some mistakes in OT certainly went against them, but like I said before the refs aren't why SHU lost- missed free throws and unforced turnovers are.

I'm laughing because the first half was atrociously called in favor of the Hall. Refs weren't making the same calls from one side of the floor to the other at all. We have many fair and composed posters on the MU forum who have to call out the complainers when they just start bitching about the refs...but last night everyone was flabbergasted at what was happening. It was more event in the second half, but Seton Hall got away with playing significantly more physical (especially hand checks and bumps everywhere) the entire game. My point is refs were swallowing their whistles on a TON of Seton Hall reach-ins, rakes, over the backs, etc that I just kind of roll my eyes when I saw officiating mentioned immediately by Hall posters on here.

Also, the charge-block thing is too confusing to me anymore. Maybe that call was not correct on Carrington, but there were several others throughout the game where the MU defender had the space and the call was a charge.

Well the first guy who brought up the refs, Marsh I believe, is not a SHU fan.

As for your description of the game, I guess it's mostly just fan bias because I saw the exact same thing the other way. I thought MU was extremely aggressive with reach ins and hand checks that usually got ignored - but since it went both ways those things didn't bother me much. The big thing to me was the treatment of Delgado. It looked like Marquette's game plan for him was to hack him every time he touched the ball. Basically saying if he's gonna beat us, he's gonna have to do it from the line. Which is fine, but half of them seemed to go uncalled. I thought Delgado easily could've gotten the line twice as many times as he did (not that it would necessarily mean any more makes lol)

And then yeah, the Carrington charge was huge. I understand block/charge is probably the toughest call to make in basketball, but it was an incredibly frustrating way to take points off the board and take SHU's go-to guy out of the game.

[Hall2012]

What's funny about it? Fans of all team complain about bad calls all the time. Both teams had plenty of gripes last night as the refs were inconsistent - they called a ton of fouls but also ignored some really obvious ones.

Some mistakes in OT certainly went against them, but like I said before the refs aren't why SHU lost- missed free throws and unforced turnovers are.

As you said, the refs weren't the reason. I'd argue if the refs helped one team more, it was the road team that was called for fewer fouls and spent more time on the charity stripe. However, you didn't lose because of missed free throws. Your team shot over their average on the season from the line. It was Marquette's shooting. You guys absolutely murdered us on the boards and getting to the line, but our 54.8 to 45.8 eFG% advantage told the story of the game.

I'm glad we're done with you guys for the season, and really don't want a rubber match at MSG unless the Big East title is on the line.

I agree with not wanting to see you guys in the BET because unless it's the 4-5 game or the title game, it means one of us probably fell well short of where we want to be.

I disagree that the refs helped SHU more - straight foul and free throw counts are a poor way to judge that because a lot of it is reflected in the style of play. Marquette defended more aggressively and seemed to intentionally send Delgado to the line as a defensive strategy so that's naturally going to lead to a higher foul count.

As for SHU's free throws, they shot .07% over their average- that's nothing. Fact of the matter is they left 13 points at the stripe in an OT loss. Free throws have been a problem all year and it finally bit them in the ass. I'm not saying Marquette's hot shooting night wasn't a factor in the game - it was, as was SHU's particularly poor shooting night - but something as simple as hitting your free throws can make such a big difference.

[MUBoxer]

What's funny about it? Fans of all team complain about bad calls all the time. Both teams had plenty of gripes last night as the refs were inconsistent - they called a ton of fouls but also ignored some really obvious ones.

Some mistakes in OT certainly went against them, but like I said before the refs aren't why SHU lost- missed free throws and unforced turnovers are.

As you said, the refs weren't the reason. I'd argue if the refs helped one team more, it was the road team that was called for fewer fouls and spent more time on the charity stripe. However, you didn't lose because of missed free throws. Your team shot over their average on the season from the line. It was Marquette's shooting. You guys absolutely murdered us on the boards and getting to the line, but our 54.8 to 45.8 eFG% advantage told the story of the game.

I'm glad we're done with you guys for the season, and really don't want a rubber match at MSG unless the Big East title is on the line.

I agree with not wanting to see you guys in the BET because unless it's the 4-5 game or the title game, it means one of us probably fell well short of where we want to be.

I disagree that the refs helped SHU more - straight foul and free throw counts are a poor way to judge that because a lot of it is reflected in the style of play. Marquette defended more aggressively and seemed to intentionally send Delgado to the line as a defensive strategy so that's naturally going to lead to a higher foul count.

As for SHU's free throws, they shot .07% over their average- that's nothing. Fact of the matter is they left 13 points at the stripe in an OT loss. Free throws have been a problem all year and it finally bit them in the ass. I'm not saying Marquette's hot shooting night wasn't a factor in the game - it was, as was SHU's particularly poor shooting night - but something as simple as hitting your free throws can make such a big difference.

Out of curiousity if you feel that you guys beat yourselves more than we beat you this time does that mean we beat ourselves more than you beat us last time?

[brewcity77]

I agree with not wanting to see you guys in the BET because unless it's the 4-5 game or the title game, it means one of us probably fell well short of where we want to be.

I disagree that the refs helped SHU more - straight foul and free throw counts are a poor way to judge that because a lot of it is reflected in the style of play. Marquette defended more aggressively and seemed to intentionally send Delgado to the line as a defensive strategy so that's naturally going to lead to a higher foul count.

As for SHU's free throws, they shot .07% over their average- that's nothing. Fact of the matter is they left 13 points at the stripe in an OT loss. Free throws have been a problem all year and it finally bit them in the ass. I'm not saying Marquette's hot shooting night wasn't a factor in the game - it was, as was SHU's particularly poor shooting night - but something as simple as hitting your free throws can make such a big difference.

To the former, there were a ton of uncalled slaps in the first half that SHU didn't have called while we had some ticky-tack stuff against us the other way. It's all fan perspective, but I wasn't so far from the court that I couldn't see the difference. 13-6 was the foul disparity in the first half. That's pretty stark, and it's not like we were mugging you guys and Delgado was some paragon of defensive restraint.

To the latter, if you expect to shoot 60% from the line and shoot marginally over that, you aren't leaving points at the line, those are points you expect to leave. I wouldn't say we left points at the free throw line, even though we actually shot well below our season average. If you guys had a real problem, it was not capitalizing on second chance points. Your offensive rebounding allowed you to take 8 more shots than we did, but you made two fewer. That was a far, far bigger problem than free throw percentage, which was really an inconsequential stat last night.