Mullin and St. John's

[Bill Marsh]

In this 25 year period, that 3 year period IS the blip. You say 1965-2003- that's fine- but those 4 years were in the last 10. The shine had already started to come off.

Also for your comment about St John's missing postseason only 13 times in 64 years. North Carolina is on a streak right now of 49/50. Also, the St John's streak has at least some NIT appearances that were gimme's- sorry but going like one year 14-13 and getting an NIT bid doesn't impress me much. I'm sure I'll be able to find some others.

Sorry but 25 years of mediocrity or worse has St John's in a pretty poor state right now. I don't know if I'd even say their a top job in the Big East. Let alone the country. 12 losing seasons probably in 25 years does that you know.

Repeating a false statement doesn't make it true. It has not been 25 years of mediocrity. Not when 20+ wins 5 of 6 years 1998-2003 including 1999 Elite 8 and 2000 BE champs, ranked in the top ten both seasons.

[Bill Marsh]

2nd Level Schools (11), listed alphabetically:
- Arizona.
- Louisville.
- Marquette.
- Maryland.
- Michigan.
- Michigan State.
- Ohio State.
- St John's.
- Syracuse.
- Texas.
- Villanova.

I disagree with Syracuse until I see someone other than Boeheim succeed there. I might have to begrudgingly put UConn on the list

Roy Danforth took them to a Final Four.

[Bill Marsh]

the ONLY reason why St John's gets good home and homes is folks want to play in NYC.

Uhhh . . . Yeah . . . That's who they are.

Just look at St John's last 10 years. They have 4 games at MSG with Duke, and 1 with UCLA. Outside of that- nothing.

Nope. You forgot 2 with Syracuse and 1 with Gonzaga.

[Bill Marsh]

but my point is teams are getting into NYC w/o having to play St John's- something that's been extremely different than 25 years ago. Used to be to play at MSG you pretty much had to play St John's. Not any more- and it's getting more and more each year with more teams able to play at MSG. That's a dynamic that has totally changed in the last 25-30 years.

Today is different than the 1980's? Teams could only get a date at the Garden by scheduling St John's 25-30 years ago and beyond? Not true, Stever.

MSG at its 3 different locations was built on showcasing college basketball. For over 60 years, the Holiday Festival has brought teams into MSG. 30 years ago it was bigger than today. For over 30 years, the pre-season NIT has been bringing teams into the Garden. For the past 15 years the Jimmy V Classic has been scheduling exhibition games at The Garden. In addition, MSG has always been open to high profile teams playing games at the Garden. There were manh more ways to get dates at The Garden than the few dates that SJU might have had available for a big time opponent at The Garden in any given season.

Oddly enough, getting a game against St John's was actually a newly revived thing 30 years ago. Once St John's opened its on-campus arena in 1961, it pulled its home games from The Garden for almost 20 years, where almost all NYC teams had been playing their home games. They were trying to protect their program from the betting scandals which had destroyed many NYC basketball programs in the 1950's and again in the 1960's. It didn't return to MSG until 1980 with the inaugural season of the Big East. Louie rebuilt the St John's program in the 1960's and 1970's in a manner exactly opposite to what you suggest. Except for the occasional NIT or Holiday Festival, they weren't playing any games at the Garden. Other local schools were, but not The Redmen.

[EMT]

2nd Level Schools (11), listed alphabetically:
- Arizona.
- Louisville.
- Marquette.
- Maryland.
- Michigan.
- Michigan State.
- Ohio State.
- St John's.
- Syracuse.
- Texas.
- Villanova.

I disagree with Syracuse until I see someone other than Boeheim succeed there. I might have to begrudgingly put UConn on the list

Roy Danforth took them to a Final Four.

Touche!!! I contradicted myself above as well.

[stever20]

In this 25 year period, that 3 year period IS the blip. You say 1965-2003- that's fine- but those 4 years were in the last 10. The shine had already started to come off.

Also for your comment about St John's missing postseason only 13 times in 64 years. North Carolina is on a streak right now of 49/50. Also, the St John's streak has at least some NIT appearances that were gimme's- sorry but going like one year 14-13 and getting an NIT bid doesn't impress me much. I'm sure I'll be able to find some others.

Sorry but 25 years of mediocrity or worse has St John's in a pretty poor state right now. I don't know if I'd even say their a top job in the Big East. Let alone the country. 12 losing seasons probably in 25 years does that you know.

Repeating a false statement doesn't make it true. It has not been 25 years of mediocrity. Not when 20+ wins 5 of 6 years 1998-2003 including 1999 Elite 8 and 2000 BE champs, ranked in the top ten both seasons.

lets look....
2002-03 they finished regular season 16-13 with 78 RPI
2001-02 20-11 40
2000-01 14-15 65
1999-00 24-7 5
1998-99 25-8 8
1997-98 21-9 32
1996-97 13-14 87
1995-96 11-16 107
1994-95 14-13 78
1993-94 12-17 116

so in those 9 years- St John's with a top 50 RPI only 4 times. hardly a stellar run there. Especially combined with what came after that. It's really 2 great years out of 25. With in the 25 years 10 years with a RPI of 100 or worse. That sounds pretty mediocre to me.

[stever20]

the ONLY reason why St John's gets good home and homes is folks want to play in NYC.

Uhhh . . . Yeah . . . That's who they are.

Just look at St John's last 10 years. They have 4 games at MSG with Duke, and 1 with UCLA. Outside of that- nothing.

Nope. You forgot 2 with Syracuse and 1 with Gonzaga.

Syracuse I'll give you. Gonzaga was preseason NIT, not a home and home series.

[Bill Marsh]

the ONLY reason why St John's gets good home and homes is folks want to play in NYC.

Uhhh . . . Yeah . . . That's who they are.

Just look at St John's last 10 years. They have 4 games at MSG with Duke, and 1 with UCLA. Outside of that- nothing.

Nope. You forgot 2 with Syracuse and 1 with Gonzaga.

Syracuse I'll give you. Gonzaga was preseason NIT, not a home and home series.

I missed that about the Gonzaga game. Thanks for the correction.

[DeePhence]

Late to this thread, and not a frequent poster so some of you might not feel it's relevant.

But I gotta add two cents:

I am not sure Mullin is the right guy at St John's. Nothing about his post-player experience suggests "big time college basketball coach", and even less so "turnaround artist". But I am big Mullin fan, and and as a fan of the BE since it's inception in the 1980s, the conference - already in a strong position - would benefit massively from a nationally relevant St. John's. I hope he gets it done. I can sort of see that St John's tried traditional coaches in the last few cycles and they didn't work, so why not go outside the box, try to recapture some local buzz and historical appeal with a New York guy with huge name recognition, deep Red Men roots (sorry, still grates to say Red Storm, even though I acknowledge the anachronistic drawbacks of Red Men), and maybe due to his Gold medals, his playground legend status, and his NBA HoF resume, a guy who could draw young talented recruits. Still not sure he knows anything about running a college "program", but I digress.

St John's, if they could get it together would be a huge thing. You don't think that if St. John's was a perennial power again, that top tier OOC games would be there's for the choosing? You're crazy. New York is still the freaking center of the world. Tickets at MSG for a Duke or UNC or Kansas game would be the hottest tickets in town, coveted by everyone who is anyone in New York. The media circus would be outrageous. The recruiting potential the same. NYC is still a basketball town and still a town that rewards success lavishly. Both the Knicks and St John's are really letting the city down right now. May St. John's make it back soon.

Re: Oklahoma State - When Ford was let go, Boone Pickens made it known to Ed Cooley that he could name his price to come to Stillwater. Cooley said - thanks but no thanks. Not interested. I don't know how significant that is. Cooley grew up in Providence, dreamed of playing at PC but didn't have the ability or the grades. He also has never lived outside of New England. So maybe it says more about the particulars of Ed Cooley than the relative attractiveness of the Big East and Providence versus Oklahoma State and the Big XII. Also keep in mind that when Tim Welsh left PC, Travis Ford was on the short list in Providence, and got as far as the church but left at the altar at the last minute. Press releases were practically prepared to announce him as the next PC coach, that's how serious a courtship it was. So we're 1 and 1 against Ok State on the coaching carousel in recent years. But still, I think one of the things the Big East has done since the Fox deal is sign the right guys at the right schools to be more than stepping stone jobs. I don't think Jay Wright would leave Villanova for anyone, except maybe the pros (and I am not sure even then), or that McDermott would leave Creighton. Not sure that Chris Mack would leave Xavier. Don't know about Holtmann, but it would have to be a clear step or two higher up the food chain than Butler. Wojo, probably for the right school. Willard also maybe, but again, I doubt he's looking for his next job at the moment. The coaches are well paid, the schools have committed to resources for the hoops programs, the culture in the Big East is unique and not easily found elsewhere, and the coaches that are there are almost to a man, near perfect fits for their schools.

The Big East's foundations are very strong, I think, and there aren't that many conferences that can compare or exceed.

But I am biased. I think it's obvious that stever is as well.

[Bill Marsh]

In this 25 year period, that 3 year period IS the blip. You say 1965-2003- that's fine- but those 4 years were in the last 10. The shine had already started to come off.

Also for your comment about St John's missing postseason only 13 times in 64 years. North Carolina is on a streak right now of 49/50. Also, the St John's streak has at least some NIT appearances that were gimme's- sorry but going like one year 14-13 and getting an NIT bid doesn't impress me much. I'm sure I'll be able to find some others.

Sorry but 25 years of mediocrity or worse has St John's in a pretty poor state right now. I don't know if I'd even say their a top job in the Big East. Let alone the country. 12 losing seasons probably in 25 years does that you know.

Repeating a false statement doesn't make it true. It has not been 25 years of mediocrity. Not when 20+ wins 5 of 6 years 1998-2003 including 1999 Elite 8 and 2000 BE champs, ranked in the top ten both seasons.

lets look....
2002-03 they finished regular season 16-13 with 78 RPI
2001-02 20-11 40
2000-01 14-15 65
1999-00 24-7 5
1998-99 25-8 8
1997-98 21-9 32
1996-97 13-14 87
1995-96 11-16 107
1994-95 14-13 78
1993-94 12-17 116

so in those 9 years- St John's with a top 50 RPI only 4 times. hardly a stellar run there. Especially combined with what came after that. It's really 2 great years out of 25. With in the 25 years 10 years with a RPI of 100 or worse. That sounds pretty mediocre to me.

This is hopeless. First of all, RPI is a terrible system for evaluating a team's season. It's a contrivance created by the NCAA for its own purposes. It's useless. There are much better systems available.

Second, I have no idea why you posted partial records for the first decade of the 25-year post-Louie period, which actually began in 1992-93. Here are the actual records for those seasons and the 1992-93 season which you omitted:

2002-03 - (21-13) NIT champs
2001-02 - (20-12) NCAA tournament 9-seed
2000-01 - (14-15)
1999-00 - (25-8) NCAA tournament 2-seed, Big East champs, AP #9
1998-99 - (28-9) NCAA tournament 3-seed, Elite 8, AP #9
1997-98 - (22-10) NCAA tournament, 7-seed
1996-97 - (13-14)
1995-96 - (11-16)
1994-95 - (14-14)
1993-94 - (12-17)
1992-93 - (19-11) NCAA tournament, 7-seed

The prolonged decline began with the Jarvis scandal and firing in 2003-04. Unless we can agree that these are the basic facts, there's no point in proceeding any further with the conversation. Not when you consider seasons when the team made the tournament as mediocre.