Mullin and St. John's

[billyjack]

In my opinion, down below is a list of the most coveted jobs in college basketball, taking into consideration:
- history, location, potential, prestige, resources, and being the "right fit" for a specific coach.

Ultra blue bloods (7), listed alphabetically:
- Duke.
- Georgetown.
- Indiana.
- Kansas.
- Kentucky.
- North Carolina.
- UCLA.

So, now, the second level... 11 schools... all still ultra-tubular and wicked cool, but a pinch below the top group:
These 2nd level schools will always get respect, always get an audience, and depending on the circumstances, can slide to meet or exceed the upper-list schools based on specific conditions.

2nd Level Schools (11), listed alphabetically:
- Arizona.
- Louisville.
- Marquette.
- Maryland.
- Michigan.
- Michigan State.
- Ohio State.
- St John's.
- Syracuse.
- Texas.
- Villanova.

Basically, Top List schools cannot get poached except between one another possibly under certain circumstances (Roy Williams returning home). 2nd Level can get poached by Top Levels but cannot poach from one another (so Wojo could get poached by Duke or UCLA, but not by Syracuse).

Billy Donovan, in my opinion, would entertain offers from any of the Top List Schools, plus several of the 2nd Level Schools, absolutely including St John's.

So these are the Big 18 schools. Texas 25 years ago would not be on the list. The schools that just missed my cut on 2nd Level are Oklahoma and Wisconsin... OU I could maybe be convinced, but Wisconsin couldn't make up for horrible seasons pre-1995 or whatever. Keep in mind I threw this together on the back of an envelope in like 5 minutes, so I might be forgetting something. Notice that I'm not delusional, so Providence isn't on either list... yet.

[hoyahooligan]

In my opinion, down below is a list of the most coveted jobs in college basketball, taking into consideration:
- history, location, potential, prestige, resources, and being the "right fit" for a specific coach.

Ultra blue bloods (7), listed alphabetically:
- Duke.
- Georgetown.
- Indiana.
- Kansas.
- Kentucky.
- North Carolina.
- UCLA.

So, now, the second level... 11 schools... all still ultra-tubular and wicked cool, but a pinch below the top group:
These 2nd level schools will always get respect, always get an audience, and depending on the circumstances, can slide to meet or exceed the upper-list schools based on specific conditions.

2nd Level Schools (11), listed alphabetically:
- Arizona.
- Louisville.
- Marquette.
- Maryland.
- Michigan.
- Michigan State.
- Ohio State.
- St John's.
- Syracuse.
- Texas.
- Villanova.

Basically, Top List schools cannot get poached except between one another possibly under certain circumstances (Roy Williams returning home). 2nd Level can get poached by Top Levels but cannot poach from one another (so Wojo could get poached by Duke or UCLA, but not by Syracuse).

Billy Donovan, in my opinion, would entertain offers from any of the Top List Schools, plus several of the 2nd Level Schools, absolutely including St John's.

So these are the Big 18 schools. Texas 25 years ago would not be on the list. The schools that just missed my cut on 2nd Level are Oklahoma and Wisconsin... OU I could maybe be convinced, but Wisconsin couldn't make up for horrible seasons pre-1995 or whatever. Keep in mind I threw this together on the back of an envelope in like 5 minutes, so I might be forgetting something. Notice that I'm not delusional, so Providence isn't on either list... yet.

I would drop Georgetown into that second level. And I'm a Georgetown fan.

[stever20]

no way in hell is St John's a top 20 job right now. Top 20 jobs don't reach for guys like Jarvis, Roberts, Lavin, or Mullin. Maybe 30 years ago St John's would have been on the 2nd list, but it's not 1985.

[Jet915]

Yeah, id drop Georgetown a level and SJU a level.

[Bill Marsh]

This has been a dormant program for the better part of 30 years.

Change that to 15 years an I could agree with you.

[stever20]

This has been a dormant program for the better part of 30 years.

Change that to 15 years an I could agree with you.

It's more like 25. Carnesecca left after the '91-'92 season. Since then in 24 seasons, St John's has made the tourney only 7 times. Only 180-236 in Big East play since then. And those numbers will be 7/25 NCAA appearances and quite possibly 184-250 or worse in Big East play in the last 25 years after this season is completed.

[Bill Marsh]

This has been a dormant program for the better part of 30 years.

Change that to 15 years an I could agree with you.

It's more like 25. Carnesecca left after the '91-'92 season. Since then in 24 seasons, St John's has made the tourney only 7 times. Only 180-236 in Big East play since then. And those numbers will be 7/25 NCAA appearances and quite possibly 184-250 or worse in Big East play in the last 25 years after this season is completed.

But 5 of those 7 tournament appearances came within the first decade after Lou's retirement. After that, I agree that the program has been mostly down.

We all see things differently, Steven, so I'm not going to argue with you on this one. I'll just explain my thinking. Consider this:

1998 - 22-10, NCAA tournament (7 seed)
1999 - 28-9, AP ranked #9, Elite 8
2000 - 25-8, AP ranked #9, NCAA tournament (2 seed), Big East champs

I don't see how a program that can put together a 3-year run like that can be considered "dormant" during that period. I understand that you and some others may have a different POV. Just my 2 cents.

[stever20]

But that 3 year period just was a blip quite frankly. Lets say Providence or Seton Hall goes back into a funk now for the next 15 years(I'm definitely not calling it, but just using as an example). It's going to feel like they have been dormant much longer than just the 15 years because of the time before those 3 years.

Also the problems in those 1st 10 years were already starting to show. In Carnasecca's last 10 years- they made the tourney in 9 of 10 years(with the other year being an NIT title). 105-57 in those 10 years in Big East play. So to go from that to 5 of 10, with in those 10 years 93-81 in Big East play(in a time where the Big East was probably close to it's weakest ever as well). 4 losing overall years(first time with a losing year since the 60's).

[Bill Marsh]

I came across the following list from June, 2015, rank ordering colleges by the amount of money they spend on their basketball programs. This would include the 2 most important things to a coach about a school - how much they pay him and what level of financial support will they provide for the program. I realize that there are other factors that go into making a top program, so I just offer this as one piece of the puzzle.

1. Louisville
2. Kentucky
3. Duke
4. Syracuse
5. Oklahoma State
6. Minnesota
7. Indiana
8. Marquette
9. Georgetown
10. Auburn

11. Michigan State
12. Arizona
13. Texas
14. Florida
15. Memphis
16. Pitt
17. Kansas
18. Oregon State
19. UCLA
20. UConn

21. St. John's
22. Baylor
23. Illinois
24. Oklahoma
25. NC State
26. West Virginia
27. Arkansas
28. Virginia
29. Wisconsin
30. Michigan

31. Wake Forest
32. Villanova
33. North Carolina
34. Arizona State
35. Boston College
36. Providence
37. Vanderbilt
38. SMU
39. South Carolina
40. Texas A&M

[ConnersvilleBulldog]

To answer the original question - No, St. John's is absolutely not a "top job" anymore.

Honest question: Let's say the St. John's job opened up in a couple of years and they wanted to go after some up-and-coming mid-major coach. Does anyone feel like it would be a slamdunk that that coach would choose St. John's over a school like Clemson or Oklahoma State? I honestly don't. And those schools certainly aren't elite basketball schools.