Conference Realignment Thread v. 2016

[ConnersvilleBulldog]

I mean, you could have said the same thing about Butler once Stevens left. Stevens put Butler on the map.

Yes, Brad took Butler too an entirely new level, but people always forget that Butler went to 2 Sweet Sixteens in the 2000's before Brad was the coach (2003 with Thad Matta & 2007 with Todd Lickliter). Sure, they weren't Final Fours, but it's not like Brad took over the Hickory Huskers without Jimmy Chitwood or something. Butler has been a good & consistent program since 2000 and it's been over 5 coaches (technically 6, if you want to count the Brandon Miller debacle).

[Wizard of Westroads]

Wichita is not a Gregg Marshall creation. They were a bigtime basketball power in the '60s and '70s and fell on hard times during the '80s after a scandal. They were in a FF in '65 and an elite 8 in 1981 with Antoine Carr, Cliff Livingston and X McDaniel. After probation in the '80s they went through 3 coaches covering 11 years where they really sucked. But none of those coaches even made it to a 5th year because it's a program that expects to win.

They were the enemy for Creighton, but I respect what they've done. I wouldn't dismiss their accomplishments any more than I would those of BE brethren who fell on hard times. The AAC would be lucky to get them, Greggggg or not.

[Savannah Jay]

Even under Marshall they have gone to the tournament only twice - their Final Four and an Elite 8.

Someone check my temperature for even THINKING about defending Wichita...but Marshall has taken them to five straight NCAA tournaments, no? 2011-12 through 2015-16...one final four (2013), another sweet sixteen (2015), a first round loss in 2012 and second round losses in 2014 and 2016. No elite 8s outside of final four run.

[Bill Marsh]

Wichita is not a Gregg Marshall creation. They were a bigtime basketball power in the '60s and '70s and fell on hard times during the '80s after a scandal. They were in a FF in '65 and an elite 8 in 1981 with Antoine Carr, Cliff Livingston and X McDaniel. After probation in the '80s they went through 3 coaches covering 11 years where they really sucked. But none of those coaches even made it to a 5th year because it's a program that expects to win.

They were the enemy for Creighton, but I respect what they've done. I wouldn't dismiss their accomplishments any more than I would those of BE brethren who fell on hard times. The AAC would be lucky to get them, Greggggg or not.

Now we're just being silly. Should I reference the fact that Butler won a national AAU championship in 1924? Going back 40-50 years or 90 years are all irrelevant to whethe a program is a good candidate for a conference upgrade.

The relevant issues are to what level the school has built the program so what we can project for it going forward. Wichita State has been to 3 tournaments in the last 35 years. Even in Marshall's 9 years, they had tournament success with basically one team - the one that went to the Elite 8 in 2012 and advanced to the Final Four the following year. I would not have a high degree of confidence that they would attract a top coach nor that the school would be able to find and hire a top coach after Marshall leaves. They have no history of doing that.

Contrast Wichita's ability to attract and hire coaches with Butler's. Chris Holtmann was a head coach when Butler offered him an assistant's job. He was torn, "but it's Butler" he said to himself. No coach is saying that to himself about WSU. No coach is relishing the chance to compete against Tulsa. No coach is leaving a HC position even at a lower level to go to WSU, thinking it's a better career move.

Even with regard to WSU's history, the 1981 team was an island of success in an otherwise mediocre landscape. They were not a power in the '70's. One tournament appearance that was one and done.

In the 1960's, they were an MVC power, but not a national power. The tournament was completely different then. Totally geographic. The Midwest region where WSU competed was by far the weakest region. It was a region of football leagues that cared little about basketball. And the tournament was smaller then. The term "Final Four" wasn't even invented for another 10 years when it became an open tournament. So, WSU got to the national semi's by winning 2 games against 2 teams that weren't even ranked. They themselves weren't ranked. When they finally faced a ranked team in the semi's, they lost to UCLA by 19 and then lost in the consolation game as well to Princeton by 36. That's a national power? St John's win over #8 Villanova for the NIT championship was more significant than Wichita State's "final four" that year.

[Barley]

Shockers also went to Sweet 16 under Turgeon in 2006.

[stever20]

well, they were able to get Marshall to leave Winthrop where he was a head coach at a team who had made the tourney 3 straight years back in 2007, so if they were able to get a hot young coach then, why would it be any different now, in a MUCH stronger league? Your statement that no coach is leaving a HC position at even a lower level to go to WSU is patently absurd.

Look, as folks here know I've defended VCU quite a bit. But it does feel like their star has diminished some. I think UConn and Cincy may feel like they want the stronger program right now, and without a doubt that's Wichita.

Also, your statement that Wichita has been to 3 tournaments in the last 35 years- just is patently absurd. 2016-35=1981. Well from 1981-2016, Wichita has been to the tournament in 81,85,87,88,06,12,13,14,15,16. That would seem to me to be 10 tournaments. So I have no clue where you are getting your 3 tournaments from. Definitely not reality.

[bluejayfanatic]

Wichita State has been to 3 tournaments in the last 35 years. Even in Marshall's 9 years, they had tournament success with basically one team - the one that went to the Elite 8 in 2012 and advanced to the Final Four the following year.

I hate Wichita State but you aren't stating facts. Wichita State has Tourney appearances in 2006 and each consecutive year beginning in 2012. Wichita did not make the Elite 8 in 2012, they got bounced in the first round by VCU. After their 2013 Final Four run, they went 34-0 in the regular season and earned a No. 1 seed in 2014, losing in the second round to Kentucky. They reached the Sweet 16 in 2015, and lost in the second round in 2016.

The reason Wichita State will likely be competitive going forward even if Marshall leaves is because they spend money like a P5/BE program and expect to win. Their ceiling and their floor aligns with programs like Memphis, Cincy, and Tulsa, which is why the AAC is probably a good fit for them.

[Barley]

The reason Wichita State will likely be competitive going forward even if Marshall leaves is because they spend money like a P5/BE program and expect to win. Their ceiling and their floor aligns with programs like Memphis, Cincy, and Tulsa, which is why the AAC is probably a good fit for them.

Their building is named after the Koch Bros who supplement Marshall's salary to the tune of $3-4M a year. He now makes more than most Big East coaches and there is a bottomless pit of money available because of the Kochs.

[Xavier4036]

I just feel like folks here think they are far worse than they really are. I mean, we've never seen a year yet where all their top teams are firing the same year. Year 1 UConn and Cincy were good, Memphis was ok. Temple was awful. Then next year Temple was better, but UConn wasn't good at all. Last year, Temple and UConn were both pretty good, along with Cincy- but Memphis fell off. Just realistically, they've been a fairly good conference, even with everyone not firing at the same time. Folks here want to talk about them like they're the MAAC or something like that. I just don't think that's realistic.

I like more competition for the P5. Always have.

Stever has certainly been much less of a troll this year than in the past (maybe because we know have sactowndog among us)....

But Stever ALWAYS gives the American the benefit of the doubt - and portrays that conference or the NCAA prospects in the rosiest of glasses, while taking the exact opposite approach for the Big East. It is peculiar for an alleged fan of a Big East school.

The fact is the American is closer to the Ivy League or Patriot than they are to the Big East, statistically speaking. The American is an OK basketball conference with a couple of very good teams each year but the Big East and AAC are just in totally different levels when it comes to leagues for basketball, and it isn't close. The AAC would rarely be discussed on here if it were not for Stever somehow managing to bring it up in every thread.

[kayako]

The reason Wichita State will likely be competitive going forward even if Marshall leaves is because they spend money like a P5/BE program and expect to win. Their ceiling and their floor aligns with programs like Memphis, Cincy, and Tulsa, which is why the AAC is probably a good fit for them.

Their building is named after the Koch Bros who supplement Marshall's salary to the tune of $3-4M a year. He now makes more than most Big East coaches and there is a bottomless pit of money available because of the Kochs.

Respect all the opinions, but yeah I don't think it's any more likely for Marshall to leave that program than any of current BE coaches to leave for greener pastures. If the move to AAC is true, doesn't it make losing Marshall even less likely?

I still think UCONN wants back in the Big East with or without BCS football program. They're so far removed from the rest of AAC (except middling Temple) geologically, and a 6 team eastern BE division with UCONN, Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Nova, and Georgetown works beautifully for basketball. Well, whatever, I think we're in a good position to take the wait and see approach. As things stand, the Big East is the dream destination for every basketball school in the country.