To SactownDog

[TAMU Eagle]

Rivalries are most often based off geography but can be any us versus them mentality. Others I would add:
GeorgeTown Villanova
Creighton Wichita State
SDSU UNLV
Indiana Kentucky.
Michigan Michigan State
X Dayton

And then their are those where the schools just generally hate each other:
USC UCLA
Alabama Auburn

BTW rivalries has been central to my premise all along. 6 years or so ago I would tune in to watch Wichita state Creighton play in the MVC because it was interesting.

I wasn't aware that Georgetown/Nova, Creighton/Wichita State. SDSU/UNLV, Indiana/Kentucky, and X/Dayton were considered rivalries. I guess some of them were conference rivalries at one point but nothing I would have tuned in to see.

Michigan/MSU, USC/UCLA, and Alabama/Auburn are rivals...in football. No one tunes in to watch them play basketball. Maybe Michigan/MSU but that's it.

[Sactowndog]

Just one post on Academic exclusivity which is something Jay fans harp on. Here is the list of BCS teams teams with the lowest admission rates and very hard academic rankings:

Exclusive Schools list Rank Percent Academic
Standford 4 7% Very hard
Duke 20 14% Very hard
Vanderbuilt 22 14% Very hard
NorthWestern 32 18% Very hard
USC 39 20% Very hard
Cal 43 22% Very hard
UCLA 64 27% Very hard
Boston College 84 29% Very hard
University of Virginia 93 30% Very hard

Only the Pac 10 and the ACC have more than 1 school and the list and guess who has the lowest television ratings. For the SEC and Big 10 if they have a school on the list they are balanced by another accessible in state school: Tennessee and Illinois. The Pac has taken it to an extreme with 60% of their population residing in a state where getting in the school is highly unlikely. Out of a state of 37M people within California, Cal admitted about 9,000 Freshman from California. Exclusivity at the Graduate level is fine. Exclusivity at the undergraduate level is a bad strategy.

What is the result?
The Pac 12 network is the only major conference network not on direct TV
UCLA basketball attendance averages 7,711 with a stadium that seats 13,800
Big East basketball outdraws the Pac 12 on Fox.
The Pac 12 championship game is relegated to Friday night

You have to have a model to have people affiliated with your league and connected to your teams. Their are certainly a number of options but if you don't have a clear affinity strategy to pull people in to watching and staying connected. If you focus on your academic excellence instead of your affinity model you will be the Pac12 instead of the Big 10.

[Xavier4036]

You are just talking in circles.

I've heard everything from the Big East problem is they are Catholic and Catholic baptisms are declining (and going into spectacular detail about numbers).... to it's actually not an FS1 problem, it's when we are on FOX that is the problem...... to FOX did it right with the Big 10 re-creating Civil War animosity and rivalry with the SEC...... and FOX did it right Big 10 because the states physically touch each other allowing for an "us vs them" rivalry (whatever the hell that means)...... to the Big East needs more hatred amongst each other and the best way to do that is to make an East and West division to create another oh-so-important "us vs them" rivalry which would surely draw national eyeballs......... to saying Wyoming and Fresno State and SDSU games are more intriguing than Big East games.

He has a self-proclaimed deep hatred for Xavier (for reasons unknown), he absolutely loathes Creighton and thinks their fans are the most smug, worst fans (for reasons he says is due to attending a volleyball game while on the Pomona Cecil Sagehens) and it appears his ONLY connection to the Big East (outside of hatred of Xavier and Creighton) is that his daughter went to Butler and his future son-in-law may some coach at Butler?

He says he is here "discuss ratings and why something needed to be done." His one solution - add his beloved Wichita State. If there is one thing we all know - adding Wichita State will not move the needle on ratings. It's not going to happen and Witchita State isn't getting an invite to the BE. Just stop posting.

The question is about affinity Marketing of Sports teams and the Big 10 makes their own decisions about who to add not Fox.

Did you not read my post? You are talking in circles?

You are on the Big East messaged board to "discuss ratings and why something needs to be done."

Your discussion about Big East ratings include .....rambles on about Catholic baptisms...the Big Ten recreating Civil War rivalries with the slave states...the geographic location of the state of Delaware...the need for animosity and hate amongst Big East members for the conference to be successful...football rivalries like Oklahoma vs Oklahoma St or Auburn or Alabama...the compelling basketball and storylines of Fresno State and Wyoming...your unexplained hatred of Xavier and hatred of Creighton due to a volleyball game you attended while at Pomona College.

All of that crazy talk yet allegedly you just want to "discuss ratings and why something needs to be done." (and oddly enough, you refuse to talk about FS1 ratings because the Big East beats the PAC-12, only FOX ratings).

And your solution - add Wichita State?

Ok.

[Sactowndog]

You are just talking in circles.

I've heard everything from the Big East problem is they are Catholic and Catholic baptisms are declining (and going into spectacular detail about numbers).... to it's actually not an FS1 problem, it's when we are on FOX that is the problem...... to FOX did it right with the Big 10 re-creating Civil War animosity and rivalry with the SEC...... and FOX did it right Big 10 because the states physically touch each other allowing for an "us vs them" rivalry (whatever the hell that means)...... to the Big East needs more hatred amongst each other and the best way to do that is to make an East and West division to create another oh-so-important "us vs them" rivalry which would surely draw national eyeballs......... to saying Wyoming and Fresno State and SDSU games are more intriguing than Big East games.

They are all related to affinity to the the league and the ability of the league to draw viewers:
1) I am only using apples to apples data. Championship games on Fox versus other Championships on CBS
2) The affinity strategy is owned by the league not FOX. The Big 10 has executed a clear multilayered affinity strategy.
3) The higher the affinity the more viewers
4) The more compelling the rivalries the more viewers

He has a self-proclaimed deep hatred for Xavier (for reasons unknown), he absolutely loathes Creighton and thinks their fans are the most smug, worst fans (for reasons he says is due to attending a volleyball game while on the Pomona Cecil Sagehens) and it appears his ONLY connection to the Big East (outside of hatred of Xavier and Creighton) is that his daughter went to Butler and his future son-in-law may some coach at Butler?
Both my daughter and future son in law played sports at Butler. Do you need more explanation? My Creighton perception is based on interactions on this board

All of that crazy talk yet allegedly you just want to "discuss ratings and why something needs to be done." (and oddly enough, you refuse to talk about FS1 ratings because the Big East beats the PAC-12, only FOX ratings).

No I have pointed out that beating the Pac-10 on Fox is no big deal.

And your solution - add Wichita State?

No add Wichita State and VCU

Ok.

[Xavier4036]

1. Low (but growing ratings) isn't because 9 of the Big East schools are Catholic and Catholic baptism are allegedly decreasing. Nor is it because of the lack of an East and West division. It's because alumni bases of BE schools are much smaller than an Ohio State or Penn State.
2. So ALL of this discussion is based on ONE game per year - the Big East championship game on FOX? That only makes sense in your world.
3. The Big 10 has executed a clear multilayered affinity strategy? By re-creating Civil War animosity and rivalry with the SEC and the slave states. That's pretty out of this world.
4. You keep using the word "affinity" What "affinity" does Wichita State and VCU bring that would move the needle on ratings for the only game per year you care about - the Big East champion game. Please don't say adding 2 state schools (one of which is in Kansas) is going to add eyeballs.
5. I don't think you understand basketball rivalries. The "rivalries" you have talked about on this thread aren't really rivalries or just strong regional rivalries that would draw national eyeballs.


1. You daughter and future son in law played sports at Butler. That's awesome - congratulations. What sports? I am still mystified why this causes you to hate Xavier?
2. To clarify, your hatred of Creighton comes from your interaction with their fans on this board? Not from a volleyball game at Creighton with Pomona College many years ago .... or because Wichita State is jealous of Creighton's inclusion in the Big East?


1. I am still confused why Big East really beating the PAC-12 solidly in ratings on FS1 has no bearing on this conversation .... yet the Big East future is doom and gloom without Wichita State and VCU. Why are you not lobbying for their inclusion in the PAC-12 to "do something" about their ratings problem?


1. If you truly believe adding a school in Kansas, Wichita State, that most people haven't even heard of, and VCU, is going to move the needle on viewership of the Big East (and only the BE Championship game, purportedly the only game you have an interest in) -- then you are living in an alternate reality. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

[DudeAnon]

The NBE Has had to fight like hell to earn a reputation. Nothing would kill it quicker than adding Wichita St. and VCU.

[cu blujs]

Creighton Wichita State was never a rivalry. Oh sure, maybe for about the last two years CU was in the MVC. CU rarely played WSU prior to rejoining the Valley in the mid to late 70s. From there, since WSU got caught cheating and put on probation, they have been largely irrelevant. They were still relatively good through most of the 80s, but at that time Creighton was so bad that it didn't matter much to the few of us following CU in those days, and few if anyone at Creighton gave Wichita St any thought. Creighton's resurgence in the mid-90s began a period of 15 plus years where Wichita St was almost completely irrelevant in the MVC and the minds of Creighton fans. Southern Illinois was primarily CU's rival for supremacy in the league in those days - and to a lesser extent Missouri St. due to most fans' disdain for the helmet head now coaching at UCLA. Outside of the fact that WSU fans were the most obnoxious, idiotic people we would run into in St. Louis each year, most CU fans could not have cared less about WSU until Greggggggg Marshall came on the scene and made WSU relevant about 2010 or so. No doubt all CU fans took great delight in smoking WSU on senior night in our last game in the MVC to take the title from WSU and beating them again in St. Louis to take the last MVC tournament title on our way out the door. But, if Creighton WSU was a "rivalry", it was about as short lived a rivalry as ever existed.

[Hall2012]

Fox vs CBS isn't exactly apples to apples data.

Compared to other championship games on Broadcast networks, yes, the Big East Championship on FOX wasn't a great draw. However, compared to other FOX college basketball broadcasts it was. It happens to be FOX's all time 2nd best college basketball audience, 2nd only to Duke-St. John's for Coach K's 1,000th win. Duke is one of those few teams that will increase ratings all by itself, and even more so for such a milestone game. That game earned a 1.3. The takeaway? FOX isn't a college basketball go-to network.

CBS, on the other hand, is THE go-to network for March college hoops. It pretty much owns the NCAA Tournament and for that reason, everyone with college hoops interest knows where it's at. In March especially, it's often the first channel people looking for college hoops turn to (maybe 2nd to ESPN for some).

TV ratings are lower than we'd like, there's no denying that. However, the make-up of our conference (being private and mostly catholic) isn't the problem. Big TV ratings come from drawing casual fans, not die-hards/alumni. And most casual fans don't care whether a school is public/private/Catholic/Buddhist/atheist/whatever when deciding whether or not to watch. The majority of casual fans probably don't even know that Villanova is a catholic school, and that's no slight against Villanova. Most people don't know Syracuse is a private school either. The only part of the make-up of the current Big East that hurts ratings is the lack of true blue-blood programs that casual fans want to go out of their way to watch. That's why adding UConn, should the opportunity arise, would make a degree of sense. Sorry, but no casual fans are going out of their way to watch Wichita State or VCU. And on the Fox family of networks, that's what they'll have to do.

So how do we improve our ratings? There's no overnight solution, but we can do 2 things.
1. Keep winning. Over the past 3 years, the league seriously lacked respect among college basketball fans. To most people you ask, Villanova was just an overrated team beating up on a cupcake mid-major conference. The National Championship last year was a big step to changing that. Them not winning the BET also demonstrated a little bit of depth. Now we need to keep winning. Nova needs to stay strong, and more teams need to push them. As the league wins and makes more deep runs in March, we'll gain more respect from the casual viewers and hopefully eventually some of our games into that "must see" category.

2. More CBB content on Fox/FS1. The Fox networks aren't cbb go to channels and that isn't changing instantly. The networks just need to air more cbb content/variety to draw eyes their way. Over time, casual viewers will remember it and start to check it more frequently when looking for a game to watch. The B1G deal helps, with MSU being the type of team that draws a lot of casual interest. Hopefully they get the Spartans on FS1 at least a few times a year, and get MSU/OSU or MSU/UM on Fox.

[Xavier4036]

That's a spot-on post, Hall2012.

[stever20]

The Big Ten deal I just don't see being that huge in basketball. It's for 50 basketball games for the year. During the conference season, there's only about 5 games total aired a week on ESPN right now. So about 2-3 games a week going to Fox or FS1.

Also, there's no guarantee that there will be any new windows for basketball on Fox or FS1.