To SactownDog

[Bill Marsh]

These discussions amaze me as one thing always gets left behind and it's the most important factor by far! How much would Fox have to pay by the contract if we add 2 schools? The answer is that in this climate of shrinking revenues of cable, it's not happening, no way no how.

Unless Fox's market research showed that revenues would increase to a sufficient level to make it worth the investment. In that case, they might even insist on expansion.

[Bill Marsh]

What I still don't get is how you're complaining about TV ratings and then touting 2 small market programs that don't have enough of a following or national brand recognition to have any chance at making a dent in the league's tv ratings...

VCU is not a small market program.

[Hall2012]

What I still don't get is how you're complaining about TV ratings and then touting 2 small market programs that don't have enough of a following or national brand recognition to have any chance at making a dent in the league's tv ratings...

VCU is not a small market program.

You're right, it's not particularly small. But if it was the 11th Big East school, it would still rank 10th out of 11 in market size. It's not the school to save the Big East's TV ratings and neither is WSU.

[FriarJ]

These discussions amaze me as one thing always gets left behind and it's the most important factor by far! How much would Fox have to pay by the contract if we add 2 schools? The answer is that in this climate of shrinking revenues of cable, it's not happening, no way no how.

Unless Fox's market research showed that revenues would increase to a sufficient level to make it worth the investment. In that case, they might even insist on expansion.

I think we know that time has passed, look at how they stopped the B12. The moneys simply isn't what it was and my main point is NOBODY moves the needle enough to see them doling out $50 million.

[stever20]

These discussions amaze me as one thing always gets left behind and it's the most important factor by far! How much would Fox have to pay by the contract if we add 2 schools? The answer is that in this climate of shrinking revenues of cable, it's not happening, no way no how.

Unless Fox's market research showed that revenues would increase to a sufficient level to make it worth the investment. In that case, they might even insist on expansion.

I think we know that time has passed, look at how they stopped the B12. The moneys simply isn't what it was and my main point is NOBODY moves the needle enough to see them doling out $50 million.

If the big east expanded even for next year with 2 teams- it would be 8 years at 4.17 million per school per year. Or 66.67 million. Or 33.33 million per school.

[Bill Marsh]

Bill Re: why Wichita

So clearly UConn would be the best if they were available. So let's assume you add UConn or VCU in the east, who do you add in the Midwest? If your revised image is teams that can and have beat the Big Boys do you have a better option then Wichita? We want people to tune in and follow the Big East because they hate the P5 and they want to watch teams they know can beat them because they have already done it. Also having a Midwest - Eastern internal league challenge increases interest and divisional rivalries.

You say it's a small state but it's quite a bit larger then Nebraska. And it's an entire state that follows college hoops. Can you identify any state in the Midwest besides Indiana where college hoops is more loved? The only possible alternative is Western Kentucky. But they don't have the cred of Wichita State or the rivalry with an existing Big East school. Lastly when, not if, Kansas goes to the Big 10 it fits the Big East - Big 10 challenge. Your comment of a state following Kansas and KState would not be any different then Butler and Indiana, Purdue and Notre Dame. People want to cheer for a league that can challenge the P5. But being a perceived all Catholic league appears to make us an unattractive alternative based on ratings. Adding two clearly non catholic schools changes things.

Dog, I have no disagreement with the basic logic of your position on ratings. Not so much on WSU as part of the solution.

I'm not going to assume that UConn will be added. Until there is some evidence of them dropping or deemphasizing football, they are a pipe dream.

Better option than WSU? Yes. Gonzaga. But that subject has been beaten to death here, so I'm not going to relitigate the argument.

As for the relative sizes of Kansas (2.8 mill) and Nebraska (1.8 mill), we're not talking about a big difference - especially when 2 P5 schools in Kansas vs one in Nebraska is factored in. Basketball fans in Kansas are looking first and foremost to KU. In Nebraska, Creighton has been able to position itself as the premier basketball program in the state since state U down the road in Lincoln is a football school.

I wasn't aware that Kansas was a state that loves basketball. I am aware that they love KU basketball, but I've never heard of that transferring over to anyone else, including failed NBA attempts in KC. I'm also not familiar with anything indicating that KU is an automatic for the B1G. The BE is certainly not going to make any conference decisions based on rumors - especially since nothing further is likely to happen with realignment for another 7-8 years. A lot can change in that time.

My experience with the fact that the BE is a Catholic league does not support your conclusion. I'm a native New Yorker where they love their hoops. There were a lot of St John's fans among the Jewish kids I played against on the playgrounds. They love hoops and it didn't matter to them that St John's was Catholic. It matters even less today because St John's is less Catholic today than it was then. My sister teaches on their faculty and she says that most of her students are non-Catholics. This is even more true in St John's graduate and professional schools of pharmacy, law, business, etc. Those students are there because they are motivated and are taking advantage of an opportunity which they found at SJU. I believe that DePaul occupies a similar position in Chicago and Georgetown for different reasons and in different ways does in DC.

The fact is that 9 of the 10 BE schools are Catholic. That's simply a fact. Adding a couple of publics isn't going to change that basic identity of their core. The presidents will determine the future direction of the league based on their own reasons, not ours. The relatively small enrollments of these schools will always make ratings a challenge for them. Some other privates like Duke, Syracuse, and Norte Dame have built their brands to the point that they have overcome that. The BE has 9 more years with Fox to see if it can do the same.

[Sactowndog]

What I still don't get is how you're complaining about TV ratings and then touting 2 small market programs that don't have enough of a following or national brand recognition to have any chance at making a dent in the league's tv ratings...

VCU is not a small market program.

You're right, it's not particularly small. But if it was the 11th Big East school, it would still rank 10th out of 11 in market size. It's not the school to save the Big East's TV ratings and neither is WSU.

I'm not sure basketball markets align with DMA size. Some markets have higher interest in college basketball then others. One should take into account the competitive intensity of the market.

[Bill Marsh]

What I still don't get is how you're complaining about TV ratings and then touting 2 small market programs that don't have enough of a following or national brand recognition to have any chance at making a dent in the league's tv ratings...

VCU is not a small market program.

You're right, it's not particularly small. But if it was the 11th Big East school, it would still rank 10th out of 11 in market size. It's not the school to save the Big East's TV ratings and neither is WSU.

I don't know how you're defining their market, but state schools normally have the entire state as their market unless they only draw students from a limited segment of the state. VCU is not a commuter school. Virginia has a population of 8 million. That's a big market.

What markets The BE has or doesn't have is open for debate. Being physically located in a market doesn't mean that a school brings that market as we have seen time after time. Comparing a smaller, private, sectarian school in a big city with a school of 30,000 that has a statewide profile is comparing apples and oranges.

There's no way that VCU would rank 10th in market size in the BE. It's market is not restricted to Richmond.

[BluejayBuff]

Relevant info:

Quick reminder that the BTK killer was a WSU alum.

[Sactowndog]

Bill Re: why Wichita

So clearly UConn would be the best if they were available. So let's assume you add UConn or VCU in the east, who do you add in the Midwest? If your revised image is teams that can and have beat the Big Boys do you have a better option then Wichita? We want people to tune in and follow the Big East because they hate the P5 and they want to watch teams they know can beat them because they have already done it. Also having a Midwest - Eastern internal league challenge increases interest and divisional rivalries.

You say it's a small state but it's quite a bit larger then Nebraska. And it's an entire state that follows college hoops. Can you identify any state in the Midwest besides Indiana where college hoops is more loved? The only possible alternative is Western Kentucky. But they don't have the cred of Wichita State or the rivalry with an existing Big East school. Lastly when, not if, Kansas goes to the Big 10 it fits the Big East - Big 10 challenge. Your comment of a state following Kansas and KState would not be any different then Butler and Indiana, Purdue and Notre Dame. People want to cheer for a league that can challenge the P5. But being a perceived all Catholic league appears to make us an unattractive alternative based on ratings. Adding two clearly non catholic schools changes things.

Dog, I have no disagreement with the basic logic of your position on ratings. Not so much on WSU as part of the solution.

I'm not going to assume that UConn will be added. Until there is some evidence of them dropping or deemphasizing football, they are a pipe dream.

Better option than WSU? Yes. Gonzaga. But that subject has been beaten to death here, so I'm not going to relitigate the argument.
Not sure why you would accept Gonzaga when they are in the 73rd DMA and share it with Washington State and Eastern Washington (which by the way dominate Spokane as I was just there) and argue against Wichita based on market size when they are 65 and own their market. Gonzaga also faces two in state Pac 12 teams. Also Gonzaga is not midwest so I don't think they are really a replacement. I'm not set on Wichita, I just don't see anyone else viable.

As for the relative sizes of Kansas (2.8 mill) and Nebraska (1.8 mill), we're not talking about a big difference - especially when 2 P5 schools in Kansas vs one in Nebraska is factored in. Basketball fans in Kansas are looking first and foremost to KU. In Nebraska, Creighton has been able to position itself as the premier basketball program in the state since state U down the road in Lincoln is a football school.
Omaha and Spokane are ranked next to each other. Butler faces the same challenge with Indiana. Xavier shares their market with Cincinatti and Ohio State. Wichita 1 ranking below Dayton. It appears teams only use these arguments against WS because they are not a similar institution. Meaning private and and catholic. If Wichita were they would be in already. The league and it fans chose based on school type exclusively.

I wasn't aware that Kansas was a state that loves basketball. I am aware that they love KU basketball, but I've never heard of that transferring over to anyone else, including failed NBA attempts in KC. I'm also not familiar with anything indicating that KU is an automatic for the B1G. The BE is certainly not going to make any conference decisions based on rumors - especially since nothing further is likely to happen with realignment for another 7-8 years. A lot can change in that time.

My experience with the fact that the BE is a Catholic league does not support your conclusion. I'm a native New Yorker where they love their hoops. There were a lot of St John's fans among the Jewish kids I played against on the playgrounds. They love hoops and it didn't matter to them that St John's was Catholic. It matters even less today because St John's is less Catholic today than it was then. My sister teaches on their faculty and she says that most of her students are non-Catholics. This is even more true in St John's graduate and professional schools of pharmacy, law, business, etc. Those students are there because they are motivated and are taking advantage of an opportunity which they found at SJU. I believe that DePaul occupies a similar position in Chicago and Georgetown for different reasons and in different ways does in DC.
I think the city thing plays well in New York and I am not arguing that the big east schools don't represent those cities in the east coast. I think you dilute that while premise with the east coast schools play 8 games against other east coast teams and 10 against mid-west teams. My proposal would turn that ratio up-side down. By adding another East Coast school and going to divisions I am doubling down on that premise. The problem is the city representation argument doesn't work outside of west coast cities. You can't base your criteria and your identity (Holyland of Hoops/like institutions) on being Catholic and assume it will only play in a positive manner.

The fact is that 9 of the 10 BE schools are Catholic. That's simply a fact. Adding a couple of publics isn't going to change that basic identity of their core. The presidents will determine the future direction of the league based on their own reasons, not ours. The relatively small enrollments of these schools will always make ratings a challenge for them. Some other privates like Duke, Syracuse, and Norte Dame have built their brands to the point that they have overcome that. The BE has 9 more years with Fox to see if it can do the same.
You're are correct. That doesn't mean they will do what is best for the long term viability of the league in terms of ratings but they have their reasons. More than one University President has made poor economic decisions.

I responded as I appreciate your factual and response to the issue of ratings. I am not sure your are consistent in your reasons of who is acceptable and not based on size but I don't think market size if the real reason so it doesn't really matter. Like institution is the overwhelming criteria of who gets in and why your ratings are poor and, I would happily bet, stay poor.