To SactownDog

[JohnW22]

If you were a Butler fan I'd think you'd be thrilled with the conference since you were in the Horizon league a few years ago. As a Xavier fan I sometimes can care less about expansion of the conference because I'm so happy for the opportunity for my team to be in the Big East. Even with Georgetown, Marquette, and St. John's struggling, when they come to Xavier I still get fired up because of the opponent. Xavier came from the Atlantic freaking 10 with Fordham, Duquesne, and the La Salles of the world...the last thing I'm thinking of is complaining about the conference my team is in. Not only does it make for better games but it makes college basketball better because I can actually care about the players on other teams in the conference and know they'll pick up big time nationally viewed wins. I can't believe a Butler, Xavier, or Creighton fan would be so low on the conference all the time.

[Bill Marsh]

Considering you have decided to riddle every thread with your trolling I think it would be easier to address it in its own thread.

So lets take a look at your arguments and just keep them here.

1) Creighton was a bad addition

So far in the NBE Creighton has made the tournament once, given us the NPOY and is now ranked in the top 10. Its also funny that a Butler fan would make this argument because they draw less than half as many fans as Creighton does.

2) We should be adding public schools

Um, which ones? Wichita St. and VCU are the only publics that are an arguable fit that would want to join currently. And neither totally elevates the brand, we would be adding public schools just for the sake of it.

3) BE is a failure as seen by its ratings

What is your comparison? FS1 ratings (while poor) have increased every year and the PAC-12 games (which are large public schools) that are aired have gotten worse ratings than the BE.

You seem to be fixated on public schools being the magic pill for the NBE. But nothing you say is proven to be true, just your own obnoxious opinion. You claim the BE is a failure. Almost every basketball metric would disagree, 50% of conference making tourney on average and a national championship in 3 years. You say ratings suck but ignore that PAC 12 games have been no better on FS1. Also, you completely ignore the fact that there are very few viable public additions and even then they aren't the kind of name brands you are speaking of. The fact is, the Big East is what it is. Even if we add VCU & Wichita St. (which are both 2nd tier brands at best) then we are still a conference with 10/12 schools being private (primarily catholic) basketball schools. The fact is that we can't judge the relevancy of the Big East in a small 3 year span. 10 years from now it will be more apparent whether this conference can succeed and keep pace with the P5. Wichita St. and VCU aren't going to change that.

Again, please keep your rants to this thread because the rest of us are trying to enjoy this conference which we are proud of. And to have you constantly fixating on the one perceivable weakness of the conference in spite of all its accomplishments has elevated you to by far the most annoying poster on this board (sorry stever.)

I will respond once again and then shelve this comment until more data arises.

In terms of Creighton, none of your points addresses my concerns on TV draw. Nebraska (and I'm giving Creighton credit for pulling across Nebraska) is a small and football oriented state. It adds little TV draw. Not to mention Creighton is paired with Providence as a travel partner which is brutal for most teams. VCU would have added a bigger school, a bigger more basketball centric state and rational travel partners.

Again you are using basketball metrics when I'm talking Championship Game ratings which were on Fox not Fox Sports 1. It is one data point and certainly not conclusive but should be very concerning. We shall see what happens this year but I am only comparing games on OTA channels to take out cable penetration.

I don't hate the Big East as I want it to stay successful but it has some clear market problems. The situation of the Big East very much parallels the MWC in football which didn't add teams when it should have and relied on a tight group of primarily small market teams.

Marketing is based on affinity. The guy who posted the Big East schools represent their cities comes the closest to posting a valid counterpoint. The problem is your missing Boston and half your schools are in the Midwest where that doesn't apply. If that truely were your market angle adding VCU (Richmond area) would have made more sense then Omaha.

In reality, your angle/market perception is Catholic. Catholic is a problem when the percentages of Catholic baptisms has fallen from 35% of all births in 1965 to 18% in 2014. Not to mention many of those are Hispanic in the South and Southwest. The reason to add VCU and WSU is pointedly to change the affinity from Catholic to something else. (Ideally home to intense basketball rivalries and schools who can and did beat the P5). VCU and Wichita fill that bill. Even in CA, I am aware of the animosity between Creighton and WSU. I suspect GeorgeTown/VCU representing the many dichotomies of Virginia would be equally strong.

In 1979, when the conference was founded, and Northeast cities had large Catholic populations they avoided an all Catholic conference inviting Syracuse, UConn and Rutgers. (I know Rutgers declined). The Big East should follow the same model. Instead, they have become more Catholic as the country had become less. Nothing like marketing into a negative trend.

No I went to Pomona College but I have been a Fresno fan for years. Hard to follow D3 football. And yes I felt the all private Catholic league was a bad idea from the start. And yes if you are going to invite Creighton then the league would be well served to invite Wichita also.

I largely dropped the point and frankly rarely visit this site. But the new data, at least to me, of the Championship game ratings is a confirming data point to something that has always appeared to be a problem. No way should the Big East Championship game be drawing less than the MWC, AAC and A10. Pointing out your better than the PAC-10 isn't exactly a counter point given the PAC has their own problems. Can't get their network on direct TV. Championship game on Friday night and marginal ratings.

I was curious if attitudes might be changing but clearly they aren't. The fans here remind me of engineers super excited about the specs of their product and pooh pooh the fact it isn't selling. None of us and especially Butler has the cash from attendance to support basketball at this level without the TV revenue. That revenue won't be there without ratings. I think it's fixable if you change your perception. But as long as you are the Catholic league, I suspect your ratings will be poor. Eventually that will catch up with the league.

Following your logic, I don't see how WSU helps. They're from a relatively small state, most of whose fans are already following KU and KSU. The logic holds up much better for VCU.

[Xudash]

If you were a Butler fan I'd think you'd be thrilled with the conference since you were in the Horizon league a few years ago. As a Xavier fan I sometimes can care less about expansion of the conference because I'm so happy for the opportunity for my team to be in the Big East. Even with Georgetown, Marquette, and St. John's struggling, when they come to Xavier I still get fired up because of the opponent. Xavier came from the Atlantic freaking 10 with Fordham, Duquesne, and the La Salles of the world...the last thing I'm thinking of is complaining about the conference my team is in. Not only does it make for better games but it makes college basketball better because I can actually care about the players on other teams in the conference and know they'll pick up big time nationally viewed wins. I can't believe a Butler, Xavier, or Creighton fan would be so low on the conference all the time.

Excellent post.

This guy makes Wichita State appear weak here. Why pretend? Small time.

[TrueBlueJay]

If Creighton is such a horrible TV draw, why in the world is Big Fox showing them three times this season?

[stever20]

wow, someone here hated more than me. I love it.

Wichita (err Wichiturd) St wouldn't even be close to one of the teams added if someone stuck a gun to the Big East's head and forced them to expand.

[Sactowndog]

If you were a Butler fan I'd think you'd be thrilled with the conference since you were in the Horizon league a few years ago. As a Xavier fan I sometimes can care less about expansion of the conference because I'm so happy for the opportunity for my team to be in the Big East. Even with Georgetown, Marquette, and St. John's struggling, when they come to Xavier I still get fired up because of the opponent. Xavier came from the Atlantic freaking 10 with Fordham, Duquesne, and the La Salles of the world...the last thing I'm thinking of is complaining about the conference my team is in. Not only does it make for better games but it makes college basketball better because I can actually care about the players on other teams in the conference and know they'll pick up big time nationally viewed wins. I can't believe a Butler, Xavier, or Creighton fan would be so low on the conference all the time.

Being factual doesn't make someone low on the conference. I want the Big East to be successful but believe they are making some key strategic mistakes. Right now the data would indicate those mistakes are real. I don't want the Big East to have low ratings but if they are low I want to take steps to address it.

[Sactowndog]

Bill Re: why Wichita

So clearly UConn would be the best if they were available. So let's assume you add UConn or VCU in the east, who do you add in the Midwest? If your revised image is teams that can and have beat the Big Boys do you have a better option then Wichita? We want people to tune in and follow the Big East because they hate the P5 and they want to watch teams they know can beat them because they have already done it. Also having a Midwest - Eastern internal league challenge increases interest and divisional rivalries.

You say it's a small state but it's quite a bit larger then Nebraska. And it's an entire state that follows college hoops. Can you identify any state in the Midwest besides Indiana where college hoops is more loved? The only possible alternative is Western Kentucky. But they don't have the cred of Wichita State or the rivalry with an existing Big East school. Lastly when, not if, Kansas goes to the Big 10 it fits the Big East - Big 10 challenge. Your comment of a state following Kansas and KState would not be any different then Butler and Indiana, Purdue and Notre Dame. People want to cheer for a league that can challenge the P5. But being a perceived all Catholic league appears to make us an unattractive alternative based on ratings. Adding two clearly non catholic schools changes things.

[Sactowndog]

wow, someone here hated more than me. I love it.

Wichita (err Wichiturd) St wouldn't even be close to one of the teams added if someone stuck a gun to the Big East's head and forced them to expand.

Your welcome Stever. You have more tolerance for being the hated person than I

[Hall2012]

The thought that Wichita State and VCU have large enough brands/followings to make a dent in TV ratings is hilarious. Especially considering either one would be in the second smallest media market in the league. Yes, the only one smaller would be Creighton, who you're arguing against, but by all means the Jays have been a great addition to the league. They offer attendance numbers those two schools can't come anywhere close to. When both cities are so low in the media market rankings that the difference is negligible, I'll take the like minded institution that draws double attendance every time.

[Hall2012]

The situation of the Big East very much parallels the MWC in football which didn't add teams when it should have and relied on a tight group of primarily small market teams.

Except with some major differences.

1. The Big East is bringing in way more television revenue than the MWC and without that huge football expense.
2. The Big East is not relying on a "tight group of primarily small market teams." It's a tight group of primarily large market teams. 8 of 10 Big East teams play in a top 50 market, with Providence just outside at 52. Furthermore, half the teams in the league at in top 10 media markets! Unfortunately most of those top 10 market teams are struggling at the moment, but it leaves massive opportunity for ratings growth.
3. Unlike MWC football, the Big East is recruiting on a level equal to that of that F5. Competing in recruiting allows them to compete on the court. As they do that, they'll start to attract more of the casual viewers and ratings will start to grow.