2017 Recruiting Class Could Be The Best Yet

[stever20]

HERE'S THE THING, STEVER...

Your comments would be accurate if not for a little inconvenience called facts.

5 recruiting cycles prior to current BE formation vs the 5 cycles since we have been together:

# of ESPN Top 100 players signed by (current) BE programs:

2008-2012 classes - 37
2013-2017* classes - 44
* not yet complete

So if the BE were to pick up even 1 or 2 more in the 2017 class, that would be a 25% UPTICK in recruiting. So yes there is undeniably a conference-wide improvement in recruiting. Thanks for playing...you'll get a copy of our home game on your way out.

The only team that has seemed to take a step back on the recruiting trails is Georgetown. And since you are a **cough, cough** fan of Georgetown, maybe you are mistaking their current struggles with the entire league. But as you now realize, you were wrong.

We 'bout done here Dog?

To count the 2013 class as a new BE class is just comical. Almost every single player was signed before the split was announced..... The league announced the split in December of 2012. A month after the players from the Class of 2013 would have committed.

and what do you know, there were 11 players signed in 2013 from the ESPN top 100...
so 2014-17 33 so far
2009-12 33

So no, it's not undeniable at all....

[stever20]

Also- Watson, Huff, Kreklow, Foster- all were transfers and not initial recruits.

Watson, Huff, and Foster will be our three best players this year, a year in which most folks (and not just Jays fans) expect the Jays to be pretty good and make the NCAAs. None would be in Omaha if not for the Big East. I am not sure why it matters that they were transfers. They are talented players that are in Omaha now because of Creighton's membership in the Big East.

I would argue that Creighton has 5 guys on our roster, right now, that are better players/prospects than anyone, not named McDermott, that we had on our team the last 5 years in the Valley (and I LOVED those guys...they just wouldn't see the floor this year). CORRECTION: The Big E, Echinique, would see the floor for us this year.

Mac infused new recruiting energy at Creighton, there is no doubt about that at all. One could argue it was trending in a positive direction. But there was going to be a "ceiling" on what kind of talent would land in Omaha if we had stayed in the Valley. That ceiling is now much higher being in the Big East. MUCH higher. To argue anything else is incredibly unenlightened.

I think the thing that some folks here think is that Creighton was recruiting at the level where they were pre-McDermott when they entered the conference. That's not the case.

I just look at freshmen recruiting and transfer market as 2 separate things. Freshmen recruiting has seen a slight uptick last few years. Transfer market- now THAT is where the Big East has really cleaned up. And it makes so much sense quite frankly. That's where the bb only card really comes into play I feel.

[jfan]

Any recruiting analysis that doesn't take into account transfers is deeply flawed. That is why the recruiting services only give one part of the total picture. Anyone who denies the positive impact that BE membership has had on recruiting for the three new schools isn't paying attention or doesn't care about facts. For the other seven, recruiting is harder to define because they were in a power conference before. (and still are in one). The NC won by Nova and all the other positive publicity for the league seems to be helping all the teams in recruiting. Time will tell!

[GumbyDamnit!]

To count the 2013 class as a new BE class is just comical. Almost every single player was signed before the split was announced..... The league announced the split in December of 2012. A month after the players from the Class of 2013 would have committed.

and what do you know, there were 11 players signed in 2013 from the ESPN top 100...
so 2014-17 33 so far
2009-12 33

So no, it's not undeniable at all....

Yeah...OK...a few things Stever.

http://pittnews.com/article/15891/archives/pitt-syracuse-to-leave-big-east-for-acc/

Pitt and Cuse announce they are leaving the Big East in Sept 2011 (so this should have affected both the 2012 & 2013 classes). Louisville announces one year later in Nov. 2012, after lobbying both the Big12 and ACC for a year. So these 2013 recruits knew it was not going to be the same conference by any stretch prior to signing their NLOI.

Then there's the whole thing about your timing.

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8745235/seven-schools-agree-leave-big-east-debating-process-source-says

Sure the C7 announce split in Dec. 2012, but speculation had swirled for months prior. And I'm sure none of the other programs (outside the BE) recruiting them didn't whisper in their ears about Pitt, Cuse and L'ville leaving, and whatever was left of the old Big East was going to implode. As you recall Rutgers was also leaving, and there were rumors about UCONN joining the ACC and Cincy leaving for the Big 12. These recruits knew that the conference was different already.

Then of course even if your premise that these 2013 recruits thought they were being recruited for the traditional Big East that they grew up watching, there still remains holes in your argument...like Rysheed Jordan.

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/9159371/rysheed-jordan-commits-st-john-red-storm

So when Rasheed Jordan committed in April of 2013, you're saying that he didn't know what he was getting into and was under the impression that he was joining a league with all of the traditional BE teams. Did I get that right?

Stop already.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Freshmen recruiting has seen a slight uptick last few years.

What in God's name are your arguing about then? Honestly...

[stever20]

Jordan would be the exception and not the rule.

Louisville left AFTER the signing day- so no, most of the recruits thought that they were going to be in a conference with Louisville.

JaJuan Johnson, Marquette 11/2/12
Deonte Burton, Marquette 9/2/11
Duane Wilson, Marquette 3/20/12
Brandon Austin, Providence 11/19/12
Reggie Cameron, Georgetown 9/26/12
Kris Jenkins, Villanova 8/26/12
Brandon Randolph, Xavier 11/14/12
Jaren Sina, Seton Hall 4/17/13
Josh Hart, Villanova 10/10/12
Billy Garrett, DePaul 4/11/11

so of the 11 guys who signed only Jordan and Sina were signed after the split was announced. 2 of the guys committed before Pitt and Syracuse even left. Maryland and Rutgers joined the Big Ten on 11/19 and 11/20 of 2012- so only those 2 would have even thought about Louisville being gone.

[stever20]

here's an amazing thing.... treating 2013 as kind of a tweener year- not counting for either....

last 3 years of the Big East- so 2010, 11, 12 recruiting classes.... C7 avg recruiting class 50.62
first 3 years of the NBE- so 2014, 15, 16 recruiting classes..... C7 avg recruiting class 50.62
(just looking, the entire decimal is the exact same).

where I think the difference is just looking- MUCH more consistent in the new format...
2010-12 ranks for the C7 60 37.7 54.1.
2014-16 ranks for the C7 53.1 46.6 52.1

for the 3 "newbies"
2010-12 avg class 67.1
2014-16 avg class 63.2

BUT- statistically I would argue that is very misleading....
you have 44.7 in '14, 52.3 in '16. But then 92.7 in '15.

It will be interesting to see these ranks in 3 years. I think the Nova championship is going to really inflate the ratings a lot.

[GumbyDamnit!]

So, I just want to clarify your statements for the record Stever. Honestly I am having a hard time following along.

1. You feel that prior to the breakup these Big East schools already recruited at a high level.
2. You feel that the current BE schools are still recruiting at that same high level.
3. You think that with the Nat Champ for Nova that you would expect recruiting may actually improve for the current BE schools.
4. You wanted to wait and see how the new league would affect recruiting but are happy to report that it has not affected it negatively.

Did I capture all that accurately?

One more question Stever, other than the ACC, which conferences do you think are doing a better recruiting than the BE?

[stever20]

So, I just want to clarify your statements for the record Stever. Honestly I am having a hard time following along.

1. You feel that prior to the breakup these Big East schools already recruited at a high level.
2. You feel that the current BE schools are still recruiting at that same high level.
3. You think that with the Nat Champ for Nova that you would expect recruiting may actually improve for the current BE schools.
4. You wanted to wait and see how the new league would affect recruiting but are happy to report that it has not affected it negatively.

Did I capture all that accurately?

One more question Stever, other than the ACC, which conferences do you think are doing a better recruiting than the BE?

I do feel what you posted there is pretty accurate.

I would probably put the Big Ten ahead of the Big East. They had 8 top 50 classes last year, with 2 of them in the top 12. This after 2015 with 10 top 50 classes. 7 in 2014. 25 in 3 years out of 42 chances. I think them getting Maryland was pretty huge. And even really the SEC has recruited well(just not translated to the court). 11 in 2014, 9 in 2015, and 9 in 2016. 29 top 50 classes in 3 years out of 42 chances. For comparisons....
Big Ten 25/42- 59.5%
SEC 29/42- 69.0%
BE 15/30- 50.0%

ACC 8 in 2016, 7 in 2015, and 8 in 2014. So 23/45 classes in the top 50 or 51.1%

So by the numbers, the ACC really hasn't dominated as much as one would think from a team perspective. What it is though is that while they don't have as many teams in the 11-50 range, they have had in all 3 years 3 teams in the top 10.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Here's why using team rankings to judge a program's or conference's true recruiting health is so tainted, especially at the top. Looking at recruiting years 2013-2016, there were 4 programs that were each in the Top 10 team rankings every year.

1. UK
ESPN Top 100 players signed - 20
ESPN Top 100 on current roster - 7
Avg Team Recruiting Ranking - 1.5

2. Duke
Top 100 Signed - 16
Current Roster - 9
Team Avg. Rank - 2.75

3. Kansas
Signed - 11
Roster - 4
Rank - 6.0

4. Arizona
Signed - 12
Roster - 5
Rank - 6.0

Nova
Signed - 6
Roster - 6
Rank - 32.8

I will concede that Duke, UK, KU and Ariz. all have the better individual classes each year. But most of those players they recruit leave early. So by using team rankings you are providing greater statistical value to those programs that recruit one-and-dones, which are more prevalent in the P5 schools. So in your analysis, you show that UK has the statistical value of picking up 20 ESPN 100 players, when their current roster only shows 7. That is what we call bad data.

Also there is nothing factored in for experience. In other words, who is more valuable to their program, Kris Jenkins and Josh Hart who helped make up the 37th best class for Nova or Rawle Alkins and Kobi Simmons, frosh at Ariz who made up the 6th best class? I guess time will tell but I think I know where I would put my $ for this year. Next year doesn't matter b/c all 4 of those Wildcats might well be gone.