Big East Expansion Again!

[RetireFiftyTu]

My penny's worth is this. I like 10 schools. I like the round robin, home and home play. I love seeing each school come to Omaha each year. You could probably add one team and still get that an still get meaningful OOC games. But going to 12 schools almost makes it impossible to go round robin. You then have to go to unbalanced schedules. I know Val says expansion is dead for now, and as I said, I like the ten team league. But, it seems that nothing stays static for long in the world of sports. Some time, be it five or ten years down the road, we are probably going to look at expansion again.

If you are going to expand, then I think you should consider what has happened at Creighton when evaluating programs. We were a good mid-major program in one of the top (at the time) mid-major conferences in the country. Creighton was perennially top ten to top 15 attendance, and had strong support within a metro area of roughly a million people. CU also is a strong Jesuit institution, with a very high academic reputation (#1 rated Midwest regional university by US News & World Report, if no one has reminded you of that lately). Also, CU administration, and perhaps more importantly the CU faculty, strongly supports the athletic program and understands its importance to the University. But, we were unable to attract consistently top 100 talent, because those kids want to compete in the major conferences. After CU joined the Big East, we started getting in the doors of those recruits. It took three years and some very good recruiting work, but we are now pulling in top 100 recruits and looking at putting together a very strong recruiting class. I think much the same can be said for Xavier - although their recruiting probably always has been a little ahead of CU because of their proximity to much larger population bases and bball talent.

So, when you look at potential expansion teams, don't be constrained to what they are right now in terms of bball production. If a school has a decent population base and great fan support within that base and there is strong support from the administration and faculty, and if the school has an established history overall of competing highly in the realm of its mid-major peers, then I believe you would see the same level of success within several years time as Creighton and X have achieved in our short time in the Big East. St. Louis comes to mind. Probably a Dayton or to a lesser extent Davidson. Boston U might be another that could fit - although perhaps they like their hockey more than bball there. Yes, Gonzaga and several other west coast schools could also fit that bill, but the travel would make that unlikely.

Spot on with the support of the administration being a big part in Creighton getting into the Big East. Father Lannon had a huge impact on Creighton getting into the Big East. Xavier had a better basketball history but Father Lannon really pushed Creighton. He was on it from the beginning. If Creighton has a different president when they were trying to get into the Big East they might not have gotten in.

[RetireFiftyTu]

My penny's worth is this. I like 10 schools. I like the round robin, home and home play. I love seeing each school come to Omaha each year. You could probably add one team and still get that an still get meaningful OOC games. But going to 12 schools almost makes it impossible to go round robin. You then have to go to unbalanced schedules. I know Val says expansion is dead for now, and as I said, I like the ten team league. But, it seems that nothing stays static for long in the world of sports. Some time, be it five or ten years down the road, we are probably going to look at expansion again.

If you are going to expand, then I think you should consider what has happened at Creighton when evaluating programs. We were a good mid-major program in one of the top (at the time) mid-major conferences in the country. Creighton was perennially top ten to top 15 attendance, and had strong support within a metro area of roughly a million people. CU also is a strong Jesuit institution, with a very high academic reputation (#1 rated Midwest regional university by US News & World Report, if no one has reminded you of that lately). Also, CU administration, and perhaps more importantly the CU faculty, strongly supports the athletic program and understands its importance to the University. But, we were unable to attract consistently top 100 talent, because those kids want to compete in the major conferences. After CU joined the Big East, we started getting in the doors of those recruits. It took three years and some very good recruiting work, but we are now pulling in top 100 recruits and looking at putting together a very strong recruiting class. I think much the same can be said for Xavier - although their recruiting probably always has been a little ahead of CU because of their proximity to much larger population bases and bball talent.

So, when you look at potential expansion teams, don't be constrained to what they are right now in terms of bball production. If a school has a decent population base and great fan support within that base and there is strong support from the administration and faculty, and if the school has an established history overall of competing highly in the realm of its mid-major peers, then I believe you would see the same level of success within several years time as Creighton and X have achieved in our short time in the Big East. St. Louis comes to mind. Probably a Dayton or to a lesser extent Davidson. Boston U might be another that could fit - although perhaps they like their hockey more than bball there. Yes, Gonzaga and several other west coast schools could also fit that bill, but the travel would make that unlikely.

Spot on with the support of the administration being a big part in Creighton getting into the Big East. Father Lannon had a huge impact on Creighton getting into the Big East. Xavier had a better basketball history but Father Lannon really pushed Creighton. He was on it from the beginning. If Creighton has a different president when they were trying to get into the Big East they might not have gotten in.

It probably came down to Creighton and St. Louis. They were pretty equal in recent basketball history but Father Lannon and the support of the Creighton administration and the fan support pushed them over the edge.

[stever20]

My penny's worth is this. I like 10 schools. I like the round robin, home and home play. I love seeing each school come to Omaha each year. You could probably add one team and still get that an still get meaningful OOC games. But going to 12 schools almost makes it impossible to go round robin. You then have to go to unbalanced schedules. I know Val says expansion is dead for now, and as I said, I like the ten team league. But, it seems that nothing stays static for long in the world of sports. Some time, be it five or ten years down the road, we are probably going to look at expansion again.

If you are going to expand, then I think you should consider what has happened at Creighton when evaluating programs. We were a good mid-major program in one of the top (at the time) mid-major conferences in the country. Creighton was perennially top ten to top 15 attendance, and had strong support within a metro area of roughly a million people. CU also is a strong Jesuit institution, with a very high academic reputation (#1 rated Midwest regional university by US News & World Report, if no one has reminded you of that lately). Also, CU administration, and perhaps more importantly the CU faculty, strongly supports the athletic program and understands its importance to the University. But, we were unable to attract consistently top 100 talent, because those kids want to compete in the major conferences. After CU joined the Big East, we started getting in the doors of those recruits. It took three years and some very good recruiting work, but we are now pulling in top 100 recruits and looking at putting together a very strong recruiting class. I think much the same can be said for Xavier - although their recruiting probably always has been a little ahead of CU because of their proximity to much larger population bases and bball talent.

So, when you look at potential expansion teams, don't be constrained to what they are right now in terms of bball production. If a school has a decent population base and great fan support within that base and there is strong support from the administration and faculty, and if the school has an established history overall of competing highly in the realm of its mid-major peers, then I believe you would see the same level of success within several years time as Creighton and X have achieved in our short time in the Big East. St. Louis comes to mind. Probably a Dayton or to a lesser extent Davidson. Boston U might be another that could fit - although perhaps they like their hockey more than bball there. Yes, Gonzaga and several other west coast schools could also fit that bill, but the travel would make that unlikely.

Spot on with the support of the administration being a big part in Creighton getting into the Big East. Father Lannon had a huge impact on Creighton getting into the Big East. Xavier had a better basketball history but Father Lannon really pushed Creighton. He was on it from the beginning. If Creighton has a different president when they were trying to get into the Big East they might not have gotten in.

It probably came down to Creighton and St. Louis. They were pretty equal in recent basketball history but Father Lannon and the support of the Creighton administration and the fan support pushed them over the edge.

The difference probably hate to say it was what happened with Majerus at SLU. If he had been healthy and still coaching, I think it would have been extremely tough to keep SLU out.

[NJRedman]

Discussed ad nauseam -

"We’re not in the market for more programs." Val Ackerman 2016

That tune changes if UConn comes calling.

[SJHooper]

Been on the sidelines for a while just reading all the realignment talk. Here's what I don't understand: why are people making it seem "impossible" for UConn to drop football or move it back to FCS? Is it tough? Yeah. But when people point to the fact that they just spent tons of money on new football facilities as a reason they 100% will not, I don't think that's true. Buildings and other facilities can always be changed. It's not like you have a building for football and that's all you can ever do in it. Why can't they just convert the football facilities into basketball facilities or other training rooms? Even if they already have all the football specific stuff, you can sell them. They are not stuck with all of this, there is a way out. An easy one? No, but it's not impossible to do like many allude to. UConn is LOSING money, not making money from football. They are the laughingstock of major college football along with Kansas and Syracuse. They have not even been playing major football for long at all. At a certain point, the longer they wait, the more money they will keep losing unless they become Texas overnight which they won't. At a certain point, their brand is diminished. At a certain point, they may be forced to call it quits or reduce to FCS. I just don't think football has as much a stranglehold on the school as many imply. So many UConn fans I talk to miss the Big East like you wouldn't believe. If there was a vote, they'd probably vote to rejoin the Big East assuming the Big 12 doesn't want them again, rather than rotting in the AAC. The AAC sucks as it is. Now imagine Memphis and Cincy taken away. Also consider the fact that Larry Brown is gone so SMU will likely go back to irrelevance shortly. UConn would be stuck in a legitimate mid major conference.

The great part of all this realignment is that we as Big East fans fresh off a national championship and another strong year overall, get to sit back and relax while watching the next round tear other schools apart. We took a chance and it paid off very well. By the way, if we can get UConn in any capacity, we have to do it. All you do is make the penalties for leaving absurdly strict. Worst case scenario, they join us then 10 yrs down the road bolt for a new conference and we get tons of money. And we are back where we started which was a very good conference still. I think UConn puts us over the top for basketball. They are such a natural fit in the conference and the history is already there. UConn V. St. John's would be a sellout and so would G'Town V. UConn and Nova V. UConn all at MSG. It would really bring back the fun rivalries. If UConn misses the Big 12 bus, Val should call and get them to talk. Tell them the landscape is changing drastically and we are the final lifeboat. You can come with us to safety and security or you can stay in the AAC which will be burning in turmoil eventually leading to irrelevance. With UConn added, there is no way anyone could even question if the Big East is still a power conference. Of course we know it is and so do most pundits, but it would convince those who may not agree right now. It does so much for perception nationally as well.

[Vill]

Discussed ad nauseam -

"We’re not in the market for more programs." Val Ackerman 2016

That tune changes if UConn comes calling.

I don't get why anyone associated with the Big East would want UConn. They need us way more than we need them.

[Xudash]

My two cents:

1. Do We Need Expansion Now Or Anytime Soon. Hell, no. Every key performance metric for this conference is exceeding expectations. Competitiveness? Thank you Villanova, specifically, but thank you Big East Conference for averaging putting 50% of your members into the NCAA Tournament for each year of your new existence. Conference Tournament? MSG is very happy with how we're progressing, especially after last year's showing in New York. Media partner and performance? Fox is happy with our results and how we're trending. Sustainability? We have a strong stable of coaches, improving facilities, especially at DePaul, and clearly strong recruiting results which indicate that the Big East is viewed as a major conference.

2. We're a Bona Fide Opportunity To Present Itself, Should We Ignore It? Of course not, but the definition of "bona fide" for these purposes should frankly be rather staggering; the bar should be set very high, which would mean that any such candidate would truly STRENGTHEN THE BIG EAST IMMEDIATELY UPON THEIR INCLUSION IN IT. We have no reason to add based upon potential.

3. Is It Time To Understand That Notre Dame Isn't Coming And Will Never Be Available? Um, yes. Yes it is time for understanding that.

4. Is It Realistic To Believe That Existing P5 Schools Would Voluntarily Drop Out Of Their P5 Affiliations? No, no it isn't realistic to believe that. Boston College couldn't be happier with its affiliation with the ACC, probably more so now than before with the recent announcement of the ACC's network deal. Schools like BC, Wake and Vandy would be foolish to leave their existing conference affiliations. And it isn't even about them taking some form of preemptive path in order to avoid being dropped from their P5 conferences. No perceived alternative path could possibly match the existing deals they have as a result of their P5 affiliations; it pays to assume they will survive "as-is" in the conference affiliation sweepstakes.

To sum it up, ND and other existing P5 schools aren't going to be coming our way. It truly is all about football for them and what football means with respect to funding potential at the P5 level. Gonzaga is most likely out due to geographical considerations. It would make zero sense at this point to add programs like Richmond, SLU, Dayton, Davidson, etc. We're operating from a position of absolute strength. It is perfectly possible, especially based upon our existing experience and trend, that we only get better and stronger as a 10-team basketball conference. We don't have to expand because football conferences are doing so. We don't need the tired arguments about gaming more bids, given that sending 5 to 6 every year while maintaining a denominator of 10 for distribution purposes is as about as solid as it gets.

That leaves one team, IMHO for consideration: UCONN.

They're a no brainer. UCONN would solidify an already solid Big East Tournament. We could retain the Round Robin by adding them and stopping right there. We're they to come, let's face it, it would only be because they would have deemed football "dead" at the FBS level at that point. I can't see any program investing that heavily to gain entry, only to gain entry (into FBS), but then fold their tent because they couldn't gain full access (P5), then drop when it became clear they had no chance at the P5 (thus joining the Big East), only to then try another run at it later under conditions that are impossible to imagine as the reasons for doing so (i.e. if they can't make it into the P5 - the Big XII - this time around, what could possibly be the earthly scenario for any opportunity for getting into the money side of the sport later?).

So, stay at 10, period, end of story, unless UCONN becomes available. IF they become available, they most likely do so without every having to think about football as their flagship sport again. And all this assumes that the public reporting requirements are not such a big deal to the Presidents that they would pass upon such an opportunity.

Now let your imaginations run a little wild for a minute:

1. UCONN joins the Big East in 2018, after the Big XII settles itself without them (CT. refuses to help support UCONN football due to its budget problems).
2. The Big East and UCONN simply get that much stronger together.
3. Syracuse fans sit there and watch all this as they continue to slide after Jimmy's exit.
4. Pitt and BC have to sit there and watch it, too.
5. Those schools continue to enjoy their money while their fanbases become increasingly frustrated with their place at the competitive end of things.
6. Mic Cronin lands a job parking cars at Jeff Ruby's after finally being tossed at UC, much to the resentment of Xavier fans.

WE DON'T HAVE TO SOLVE ANYTHING BASED UPON FOOTBALL.

IRONICALLY, WE MAY CONTINUE TO GROW IN STRENGTH BECAUSE OF CHANGES ON THE FOOTBALL SIDE OF THINGS.

IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, KRIS JENKINS' SINGLE-HANDEDLY CHANGED THE TRAJECTORY OF THE BIG EAST.

We were all a little nervous about this thing a few years ago. We always have to work hard and stay sharp to stay on top, but there is no reason to be nervous now. And it probably gets better based on our terms, not those of another party.

[billyjack]

Great post Xudash!

Stever... I agree with you on the Majerus thing.

[Novachap]

XUDash... totally agree. UCONN, as much as it pains me, is the ONLY viable option IMHO. The built in rivalries, their success and their coaching pedigree is very strong and fits well with the BE. Their fan base at MSG is VERY strong and they are a great draw on the road. Annoying? Yes, but we all are to each other. Don't get me wrong, I love the construct of our league. Do I miss the games with UCONN and Syracuse---yup, sure do. Syracuse is not coming back with their ACC deal. UCONN, who knows. IMO either way we win.

[DeltaV]

I still think we'll see UConn in the ACC before long. As long as the ACC is at an uneven number, UConn will see themselves as #16, and they're not going to give up on football while there is still any chance of playing with the big boys.