Conference Realignment Thread v. 2016

[Bill Marsh]

I just wanted to clarify that Schnellenberger left the Miami Hurricanes for the USFL, not Louisville. That USFL team folded a year later. When Louisville hired him he was not coaching.

Fair point. I should not have skipped over his USFL stint. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Bill Marsh]

UCONN is not in great shape if they get left behind in the AAC. They may find out by this summer that they are left out and have to re-evaluate pursuing big time football. Sunk costs are sunk costs but only idiots continue to throw money at a losing proposition.

It may be a long shot but the long shots are the only ones that make sense for additions. The BE can stay at 10 and be just fine or welcome in a long shot or two if things break that way. There is no need to add anyone else...ever.

Idiots and visionaries.

You really don't understand what UConn's vision is and you should before commenting on what's in their future. I expect that the Big East office has researched this and understands fully what's going on in Storrs. As a result, I don't expect that they're wasting any time on considering this as a future contingency.

UConn wants to be affiliated wth like institutions. That's not The Big East. Similarly the new Big East wants to be affiliated with like institutions as well. That's not UConn.

This kind of discussion is simply a parlor game for college basketball fans. It's not how university presidents think. Nor is it how their Boards and major boosters think either.

They may have been visionaries 10 plus years ago but now they are looking more like idiots with each passing day. Was it a good investment/gamble 20 years ago? At the time, it seemed so and it still may pan out but it is not looking good.

If the Big XII expands to 12 teams and UCONN is not one of them, UCONN football will continue to lose money and prestige by the hour. Someone posted here or on another site about the financial trouble UCONN is in because of them chasing this vision you keep talking about. Without a P5 conference affiliation, that vision is a fool's vision!

UCONN may want a lot of things but what UCONN wants and what they actually get may be two entirely different things. We all WANT stuff but we don't necessarily GET it. UCONN does not appear to be in a good position to get anything they want.

You don't get it do you? I don't care what UCONN wants and neither does the BE. The BE does not need UCONN. UCONN may not want to be in the BE but it may turn out in 10 years to be the best option for them. If that proves to be true, then the BE could add them and their two great college basketball teams. If not, fine, stay at 10.

To say it will never happen just because it's not what UCONN WANTS is just ignorant.

When a poster falls back on name calling, he just shows a lack of any other argument to support his point. Exactly what am I ignorant of?

[lolhoya]

Xudash,

You keep saying that adding teams would "dilute" the league, but there is no evidence of that. The main teams under consideration would improve the league's average.

Again, plenty of reasons not to expand, but dilution is not one of them unless you are talking about adding a team like SLU.

VCU, Dayton, Gonzaga, Wichita St, UConn -- any of those teams make the league better on average.

[FenwayFriar]

Here is the problem both have, without P5 money and affiliation, how long can UCONN and UC survive trying to keep football programs? Are both okay being Akron for the next several decades? Eventually money runs out, yes? UC is in a deep hole financially and I believe UCONN is too. If the Big XII makes a move this year and UCONN is left out, what then?

Money is not and will not be a problem for UConn. (IDK about Cincy.) Remember, this is Connecticut we're talking about, the state withthehighest per capita income in the country. The university has statewide support, statewide interest, and statewide media coverage. Their BOT 2 months ago approved a plan for the independent fundraising arm of athletics to tap new, non-tuition sources of funding. They understand the financial implications of being in the AAC and they have a plan to deal with it.

UConn is not Akron and never will be. UConn is the flagship university of the state and the only major player in college athletics in a state of almost 4 million - with no instate competition from professional sports. Akron is one of a handful of regional public universities in Ohio, none of which are anything more than mid major in any sport, they all rank behind TOSU & Cincy. Akron has no major presence or revenue in any sport while UConn is. The most successful basketball program in the country in recent years - both men's and women's. That makes UConn immediately relevant in a way that Akron never will be, the analogy doesn't work.

UConn is not in a deep hole financially and is unlikely ever to be in one. Thy simply are not.

UConn would obviously accept an invitation from the Big XII if it comes. But if it doesn't, that's not the ended the world because it's not really what they aspire to. They want to be able to associate with research universities like those from the B1G or the ACC. So, if the Big XII doesn't come knocks, they will continue to roll up their sleeves and work toward their goal.

Bill, I appreciate your passion regarding UConn but you're totally off base. It's not as easy as the black and white statements you proclaim: "They'll never come back to the Big East, they'll never drop football to FCS, money will never be a problem for UConn". How can you possibly say that with such "certainty"? Crazier things have happened, especially in college sports. Look, I really could not care less if they come back or not because personally I love where this conference is at. And I certainly don't think anyone working for the Big East thinks it's going to happen any time soon, or ever planning on it. But to say never? If they don't get invited to a P5 conference it's definitely a possibility.

Within the last month (March 13, 2016), the New York Times published an article on the UConn football problem (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/14/sports/basketball/football-drags-on-uconns-power-5-ambitions.html?_r=0). Within the article I'll bring up these couple of paragraphs:

In addition, the UConn athletic department faces a big financial hole.

As a member of the Big East, the department was more or less self-sufficient. Now it loses around $20 million a year on $70 million in revenue. In effect, the athletic department funds its teams as if they were in a Power 5 conference, but without Power 5 revenue sources.

Susan Herbst, UConn’s president, understands the importance of the Huskies to the state and believes in sports as an important component of university life. But the state of Connecticut is facing a $900 million budget deficit, and there is a real question about how long Herbst will be able to subsidize the athletic department out of the university’s general budget. It won’t be forever.

One solution — indeed, the most practical solution — would be for UConn to de-emphasize or drop football and rejoin the Big East, which has been reconstituted as a basketball league and includes old Huskies rivals like Georgetown and St. John’s. When it was reformulated, the Big East signed a 12-year, $500 million television contract with Fox. Without the expense of football, UConn athletics could well be back in the black.

Sound familiar? If the New York Times is writing articles about a UConn-Big East reunion how is the idea "out of left field" as you previously proclaimed? You're acting like this is the craziest idea in the world and anyone who thinks there's a 1% chance of it happening is completely nuts. A state with a $900 million budget deficit is not going to keep plugging in money for a sunk cost in UConn football. As I said, the citizens of Connecticut are too smart to let that happen forever if they continually aren't seeing results. A lot can change in a decade.

Regarding your statement that "UConn is not in a deep hole financially and is unlikely ever to be in one." First of all, according to the Hartford Courant (February 25, 2016), the state of Connecticut will be in a $900 million budget deficit next year (http://www.courant.com/politics/hc-budget-deficit-rises-0226-20160225-story.html). Yes, the state with the highest per capita income in the country! So please don't think the two are related. Actual quotes from the article: ""Those are just incredible numbers. What's happening is really shocking,'' said Senate Republican leader Len Fasano of North Haven. "People should be scared.""

What happens when the state is in a huge hole? Well... in terms of UConn, state funding will decrease next year by $6.5 million- The Daily Campus, March 29, 2016 (http://dailycampus.com/stories/deficit-compromise-hits-uconn-with-65-million-in-state-funding-cuts). On top of this decrease in state funding, UConn is currently in a $40.2 million deficit- The CT Mirror, December 16, 2015 (http://ctmirror.org/2015/12/16/uconn-raises-tuition-promises-major-budget-cuts/). You don't call that being in "a deep hole financially?" Not only is UConn in a huge hole financially, the state of Connecticut is in an historic financial hole as well. These stats completely and directly refute your entire argument.

So, no offense, but this time I think I'll put my trust in the New York Times, Hartford Courant, The Daily Campus, and the CT Mirror over a message board poster. But definitely keep thinking you know everything about UConn because you happen to live in the state. And certainly don't let the facts get in the way of your argument.

[adoraz]

UConn is very unlikely however I can't see them staying in the American long term. If the P5 conferences don't take them, which is possible, then where do they go?

[_lh]

Here is the problem both have, without P5 money and affiliation, how long can UCONN and UC survive trying to keep football programs? Are both okay being Akron for the next several decades? Eventually money runs out, yes? UC is in a deep hole financially and I believe UCONN is too. If the Big XII makes a move this year and UCONN is left out, what then?

Money is not and will not be a problem for UConn. (IDK about Cincy.) Remember, this is Connecticut we're talking about, the state withthehighest per capita income in the country. The university has statewide support, statewide interest, and statewide media coverage. Their BOT 2 months ago approved a plan for the independent fundraising arm of athletics to tap new, non-tuition sources of funding. They understand the financial implications of being in the AAC and they have a plan to deal with it.

UConn is not Akron and never will be. UConn is the flagship university of the state and the only major player in college athletics in a state of almost 4 million - with no instate competition from professional sports. Akron is one of a handful of regional public universities in Ohio, none of which are anything more than mid major in any sport, they all rank behind TOSU & Cincy. Akron has no major presence or revenue in any sport while UConn is. The most successful basketball program in the country in recent years - both men's and women's. That makes UConn immediately relevant in a way that Akron never will be, the analogy doesn't work.

UConn is not in a deep hole financially and is unlikely ever to be in one. Thy simply are not.

UConn would obviously accept an invitation from the Big XII if it comes. But if it doesn't, that's not the ended the world because it's not really what they aspire to. They want to be able to associate with research universities like those from the B1G or the ACC. So, if the Big XII doesn't come knocks, they will continue to roll up their sleeves and work toward their goal.

Bill, I appreciate your passion regarding UConn but you're totally off base. It's not as easy as the black and white statements you proclaim: "They'll never come back to the Big East, they'll never drop football to FCS, money will never be a problem for UConn". How can you possibly say that with such "certainty"? Crazier things have happened, especially in college sports. Look, I really could not care less if they come back or not because personally I love where this conference is at. And I certainly don't think anyone working for the Big East thinks it's going to happen any time soon, or ever planning on it. But to say never? If they don't get invited to a P5 conference it's definitely a possibility.

Within the last month (March 13, 2016), the New York Times published an article on the UConn football problem (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/14/sports/basketball/football-drags-on-uconns-power-5-ambitions.html?_r=0). Within the article I'll bring up these couple of paragraphs:

In addition, the UConn athletic department faces a big financial hole.

As a member of the Big East, the department was more or less self-sufficient. Now it loses around $20 million a year on $70 million in revenue. In effect, the athletic department funds its teams as if they were in a Power 5 conference, but without Power 5 revenue sources.

Susan Herbst, UConn’s president, understands the importance of the Huskies to the state and believes in sports as an important component of university life. But the state of Connecticut is facing a $900 million budget deficit, and there is a real question about how long Herbst will be able to subsidize the athletic department out of the university’s general budget. It won’t be forever.

One solution — indeed, the most practical solution — would be for UConn to de-emphasize or drop football and rejoin the Big East, which has been reconstituted as a basketball league and includes old Huskies rivals like Georgetown and St. John’s. When it was reformulated, the Big East signed a 12-year, $500 million television contract with Fox. Without the expense of football, UConn athletics could well be back in the black.

Sound familiar? If the New York Times is writing articles about a UConn-Big East reunion how is the idea "out of left field" as you previously proclaimed? You're acting like this is the craziest idea in the world and anyone who thinks there's a 1% chance of it happening is completely nuts. A state with a $900 million budget deficit is not going to keep plugging in money for a sunk cost in UConn football. As I said, the citizens of Connecticut are too smart to let that happen forever if they continually aren't seeing results. A lot can change in a decade.

Regarding your statement that "UConn is not in a deep hole financially and is unlikely ever to be in one." First of all, according to the Hartford Courant (February 25, 2016), the state of Connecticut will be in a $900 million budget deficit next year (http://www.courant.com/politics/hc-budget-deficit-rises-0226-20160225-story.html). Yes, the state with the highest per capita income in the country! So please don't think the two are related. Actual quotes from the article: ""Those are just incredible numbers. What's happening is really shocking,'' said Senate Republican leader Len Fasano of North Haven. "People should be scared.""

What happens when the state is in a huge hole? Well... in terms of UConn, state funding will decrease next year by $6.5 million- The Daily Campus, March 29, 2016 (http://dailycampus.com/stories/deficit-compromise-hits-uconn-with-65-million-in-state-funding-cuts). On top of this decrease in state funding, UConn is currently in a $40.2 million deficit- The CT Mirror, December 16, 2015 (http://ctmirror.org/2015/12/16/uconn-raises-tuition-promises-major-budget-cuts/). You don't call that being in "a deep hole financially?" Not only is UConn in a huge hole financially, the state of Connecticut is in an historic financial hole as well. These stats completely and directly refute your entire argument.

So, no offense, but this time I think I'll put my trust in the New York Times, Hartford Courant, The Daily Campus, and the CT Mirror over a message board poster. But definitely keep thinking you know everything about UConn because you happen to live in the state. And certainly don't let the facts get in the way of your argument.

Exactly! Bill Marsh is either being stubborn or "ignorant" to these things. UCONN is not in great shape if they do not get into a P5 conference soon. How long they can wait if they don't remains to be seen but it won't be forever. Bill states, that UCONN has no plan B. They better start working on one.

Yes, for the 1000th time, UCONN is a long shot to return but like Fenway said it is certainly not an impossible scenario to suggest. If it happens, UCONN would be a great addition to the BE. All other current options are not great additions and there is no reason to add them.

[Xudash]

Xudash,

You keep saying that adding teams would "dilute" the league, but there is no evidence of that. The main teams under consideration would improve the league's average.

Again, plenty of reasons not to expand, but dilution is not one of them unless you are talking about adding a team like SLU.

VCU, Dayton, Gonzaga, Wichita St, UConn -- any of those teams make the league better on average.

I never have nor would I ever take the position that UCONN would dilute the Big East. I would welcome UCONN to the Big East in a NY minute. I would do the same where Gonzaga is concerned.

Notwithstanding the success we're enjoying along the way here as a ten team conference with a nicely evolving Round Robin competitive profile, I would view UCONN, in particular, and Gonzaga, a little less so, as triggering points for expansion were they somehow able to come available and be willing to join us, so long as Fox were willing to true-up the media agreement to account for their inclusion in the conference.

Next up to bat for consideration would be VCU, but only if we otherwise had the opportunity to go "public" with UCONN. They have a commitment to basketball, a large and avid fanbase and student population, and an eastern presence. Would I take VCU on a standalone basis as a first option? No, but that's my opinion on the matter. They would be THE choice of publics to go along with UCONN, but we wouldn't go public with VCU as a first option.

Wichita State? I'll pass. I have too much respect for our Creighton colleagues to consider going down that road. A public that doesn't make geographical sense to begin with just doesn't seem like it warrants much consideration in all this.

Dayton? No thank you. UD should be dominating the A10 now that Xavier, Butler and Temple have exited that conference. They aren't dominating it. They managed to do what they normally did for many years in the A10: reversed their way backwards with too many end of season losses, defaulting their way into a three way tie with Bonaventure and VCU. UD as a priority add and on a standalone basis right now based on their overall resume and standing? No way would the Presidents go for that, and that doesn't even address their locational deficiency.

SLU? Agree with you. It will take some time for SLU to turn itself around to the point where it would be deemed a solid expansion candidate. Frankly, they don't appear to have a clue when it comes to hiring coaches; I don't have a lot of faith in their most recent selection, but, again, that's obviously only my opinion.

With all that said, recall Val's quote the other day about "a lot of boxes having to be checked off before any one team would be considered for expansion." That probably means that the boxes cover not only the team or teams in question, but other factors such as the Fox agreement and anything else that is of a direct concern to the Big East.

What probably makes it harder to check any one box now for any one candidate is the amount of success the Big East is enjoying as a ten team conference. The old adage "don't fix it if it ain't broke" presently looms large when it comes to Big East expansion.

[jaybydna]

Before anyone advocates for Wichita State, go over to their ShockerNet site and review the 31-page thread on how bad Creighton and the BigEast are. Towards the end, they start begging to be included, but the early days are funny.

I had forgotten how much I enjoy reading message boards that do not include Wichita State fans. If they join, better add some more moderators.

[Bill Marsh]

Here is the problem both have, without P5 money and affiliation, how long can UCONN and UC survive trying to keep football programs? Are both okay being Akron for the next several decades? Eventually money runs out, yes? UC is in a deep hole financially and I believe UCONN is too. If the Big XII makes a move this year and UCONN is left out, what then?

Money is not and will not be a problem for UConn. (IDK about Cincy.) Remember, this is Connecticut we're talking about, the state withthehighest per capita income in the country. The university has statewide support, statewide interest, and statewide media coverage. Their BOT 2 months ago approved a plan for the independent fundraising arm of athletics to tap new, non-tuition sources of funding. They understand the financial implications of being in the AAC and they have a plan to deal with it.

UConn is not Akron and never will be. UConn is the flagship university of the state and the only major player in college athletics in a state of almost 4 million - with no instate competition from professional sports. Akron is one of a handful of regional public universities in Ohio, none of which are anything more than mid major in any sport, they all rank behind TOSU & Cincy. Akron has no major presence or revenue in any sport while UConn is. The most successful basketball program in the country in recent years - both men's and women's. That makes UConn immediately relevant in a way that Akron never will be, the analogy doesn't work.

UConn is not in a deep hole financially and is unlikely ever to be in one. Thy simply are not.

UConn would obviously accept an invitation from the Big XII if it comes. But if it doesn't, that's not the ended the world because it's not really what they aspire to. They want to be able to associate with research universities like those from the B1G or the ACC. So, if the Big XII doesn't come knocks, they will continue to roll up their sleeves and work toward their goal.

Bill, I appreciate your passion regarding UConn but you're totally off base. It's not as easy as the black and white statements you proclaim: "They'll never come back to the Big East, they'll never drop football to FCS, money will never be a problem for UConn". How can you possibly say that with such "certainty"? Crazier things have happened, especially in college sports. Look, I really could not care less if they come back or not because personally I love where this conference is at. And I certainly don't think anyone working for the Big East thinks it's going to happen any time soon, or ever planning on it. But to say never? If they don't get invited to a P5 conference it's definitely a possibility.

Within the last month (March 13, 2016), the New York Times published an article on the UConn football problem (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/14/sports/basketball/football-drags-on-uconns-power-5-ambitions.html?_r=0). Within the article I'll bring up these couple of paragraphs:

In addition, the UConn athletic department faces a big financial hole.

As a member of the Big East, the department was more or less self-sufficient. Now it loses around $20 million a year on $70 million in revenue. In effect, the athletic department funds its teams as if they were in a Power 5 conference, but without Power 5 revenue sources.

Susan Herbst, UConn’s president, understands the importance of the Huskies to the state and believes in sports as an important component of university life. But the state of Connecticut is facing a $900 million budget deficit, and there is a real question about how long Herbst will be able to subsidize the athletic department out of the university’s general budget. It won’t be forever.

One solution — indeed, the most practical solution — would be for UConn to de-emphasize or drop football and rejoin the Big East, which has been reconstituted as a basketball league and includes old Huskies rivals like Georgetown and St. John’s. When it was reformulated, the Big East signed a 12-year, $500 million television contract with Fox. Without the expense of football, UConn athletics could well be back in the black.

Sound familiar? If the New York Times is writing articles about a UConn-Big East reunion how is the idea "out of left field" as you previously proclaimed? You're acting like this is the craziest idea in the world and anyone who thinks there's a 1% chance of it happening is completely nuts. A state with a $900 million budget deficit is not going to keep plugging in money for a sunk cost in UConn football. As I said, the citizens of Connecticut are too smart to let that happen forever if they continually aren't seeing results. A lot can change in a decade.

Regarding your statement that "UConn is not in a deep hole financially and is unlikely ever to be in one." First of all, according to the Hartford Courant (February 25, 2016), the state of Connecticut will be in a $900 million budget deficit next year (http://www.courant.com/politics/hc-budget-deficit-rises-0226-20160225-story.html). Yes, the state with the highest per capita income in the country! So please don't think the two are related. Actual quotes from the article: ""Those are just incredible numbers. What's happening is really shocking,'' said Senate Republican leader Len Fasano of North Haven. "People should be scared.""

What happens when the state is in a huge hole? Well... in terms of UConn, state funding will decrease next year by $6.5 million- The Daily Campus, March 29, 2016 (http://dailycampus.com/stories/deficit-compromise-hits-uconn-with-65-million-in-state-funding-cuts). On top of this decrease in state funding, UConn is currently in a $40.2 million deficit- The CT Mirror, December 16, 2015 (http://ctmirror.org/2015/12/16/uconn-raises-tuition-promises-major-budget-cuts/). You don't call that being in "a deep hole financially?" Not only is UConn in a huge hole financially, the state of Connecticut is in an historic financial hole as well. These stats completely and directly refute your entire argument.

So, no offense, but this time I think I'll put my trust in the New York Times, Hartford Courant, The Daily Campus, and the CT Mirror over a message board poster. But definitely keep thinking you know everything about UConn because you happen to live in the state. And certainly don't let the facts get in the way of your argument.

Well said. Well written.

A couple of minor points.

1. I'm not passionate about UConn. I'm passionate about the BE and don't want to see the conference wasting it's time waiting for a reunion with UConn which will never happen. You might notice that the NY Times article cites nothing factual in its suggestion for UConn to the BE. It's just something that makes sense to the writer. It doesn't to the university.

2. UConn will substantially increase its funding of athletics with private money, which I've mentioned several times. That will not seek additional money from tuition or from the taxpayers. They are well aware of the financial realities and have a plan to move forward. Private money has been the funding source for the rise to prominence of many big time college programs before them.

3. I'm not trying to make an argument. I'm trying to share with you and others information which I have access to. Obviously you're not interested, so I won't beat a dead horse. My guess is that the conference office has access to the same info that I do.

Thanks for the exchange. I truly respect your POV. We'll see how things work out in time.

[Bill Marsh]

Xudash,

You keep saying that adding teams would "dilute" the league, but there is no evidence of that. The main teams under consideration would improve the league's average.

Again, plenty of reasons not to expand, but dilution is not one of them unless you are talking about adding a team like SLU.

VCU, Dayton, Gonzaga, Wichita St, UConn -- any of those teams make the league better on average.

I never have nor would I ever take the position that UCONN would dilute the Big East. I would welcome UCONN to the Big East in a NY minute. I would do the same where Gonzaga is concerned.

Notwithstanding the success we're enjoying along the way here as a ten team conference with a nicely evolving Round Robin competitive profile, I would view UCONN, in particular, and Gonzaga, a little less so, as triggering points for expansion were they somehow able to come available and be willing to join us . . .

Gonzaga is available and is willing to join us.