Imagine the Big East, Coast to Coast NYTimes Article

[marquette]

I've begun to wonder what exactly the criteria are that the presidents look at for schools. I know there are things I think of when I think "power schools" and I don't see enough of them available on the West Coast to make it worth it. In order to be a power conference every single member school must have at least some air of being a power school. Because of that I don't think schools like St. Mary's or really any other WCC school outside of BYU and Gonzaga possess those characteristics. I'd like to reiterate my position that 10 IS WHERE I WANT TO STAY. This list is just because I like compiling information in one place. (Also assuming UConn isn't an option for now).

Just as an overview of candidates in this thread and in general here are my criteria, and I'm not saying these are the president's criteria...but they should be...in this order:
A.) Basketball success
...(1) Gonzaga: I don't think there's really a question here. 18 consecutive tournament appearances, Elite 8s, Sweet 16s, conference championships, the whole package.
...(2) BYU: Very similar resume to Gonzaga, a little less recent success bumps them down to #2.
...(3) Dayton: They get the nod from me because they have been successful for longer. A pair of conference tourney titles and a regular season title for good measure.
...(4) VCU: They wound up 3 for me by a razor thin margin. Great history of success back to the 80s and some really great recent performance. 9 tournament titles and 10 regular season crowns nearly tipped the overall history in their favor for me.
...(5) Richmond: 9 NCAA tourney appearances, 2 sweet 16s, 6 conference tourney titles, 5 regular season championships (none more recent than 2001).
...(6) SLU: 9 NCAA tourney appearances, 2 (old) sweet 16s, 1 (old) elite 8, 2 conference tourney titles, 7 regular season championships. Another razor thin margin here.
...(7) St. Mary's: 8 NCAA tourney appearances, 2 sweet 16s, one (old) elite 8, 3 conference tournament titles, 7 regular season championships.

B.) Facilities
...(1) BYU...not really even close. 19,000 capacity arena and they put butts in seats. Practice facilities, etc. are outstanding.
...(2) VCU: This was tough because UD Arena is great, but the new practice facility outranks Dayton's new weight room and the coming upgrades to their arena to increase capacity to 10,000+ will bring the arenas closer to even. If those don't occur, bump them down to #4.
...(3) Dayton: New weight room, UD Arena is Big East quality facility.
...(4) SLU: Also razor thin, their 10,000+ seat Chaiffetz arena is absolutely Big East quality. They, like Xavier, have a practice facility in their arena. I was torn where to put them, but a 13,000 seat arena that is generally filled and VCU's recent and proposed upgrades made it hard for me to put them any higher.
...(5) Richmond: The new Robins Center upgrades have turned that into a great facility, with an attached practice facility as well. 7,200 seating capacity is too low for a Big East facility, you will find no power conferences which have attendance averages at or below that number.
...(6) Gonzaga: I know their facility is new, but 6,000 seats is well below the Big East level. They would be capable of drawing more fans than one school currently in the conference-DePaul. I can't find any information on a basketball practice facility so I assume they don't have one.
...(7) St. Mary's: 3,500 seats is woefully inadequate for this conference. They have no practice facility.

C.) Fans
...(1)(a) BYU: 16,000+ fans per game is excellent. (average 16,000+ in attendance)
...(1)(b) Dayton: near sellout every game in a 13,000 seat arena. (12,900 average this year).
...(1)(c) VCU: have sold out every game for several years. (7,600 average this year).
...(1)(d) Gonzaga: Average a sellout. (6,300+ average)
...(5) SLU: Kind of surprising, but in a down year following a very down year they actually did fairly well. (6,757 average this year).
...(6) Richmond: In a somewhat down season following a pretty decent season they had o.k. attendance (6,400+ average this year).
...(7) St. Mary's: Can't find statistics for this year, but they did poorly last year. (2,788 average).

D.) Location
...(1) SLU: In the footprint, bridge to Creighton, 319,000 city population, 2.8 million metro.
...(2) Tie VCU: Richmond is an East Coast city, close enough to Georgetown to not cause serious travel issues. 218,000 city population, 1.26 million metro.
...(2)Tie Richmond: Id.
...(4) Dayton: Within the footprint, maybe a little too close to Xavier. City population 141,000 and metro 802,000.
...(5) BYU: Outside the current footprint but much closer than the other WCC schools mentioned. Pain for travel. Provo 116,000 with a 527,000 metro.
...(6) Gonzaga: I struggled with this, but the fact is Spokane is an actual city. 209,000 city population and 541,000 metro.
...(7) St. Mary's: Moraga is a town with a population of 16,000 people. It is close to some major cities, but is part of none. the county population is just north of a million.

E.) Fit (think this should count minimally but the presidents have shown by snubbing VCU that it matters to them). This category is very subjective.
...(1) SLU: They and Richmond are the best academic schools. They are catholic, urban, and already cooperate on certain research matters with MU, GU, X, and CU via the Association of Jesuit Colleges and Universities.
...(2) Gonzaga: Likewise catholic, private, urban, good academics, AJCU memeber.
...(3) Dayton: Catholic, private, urban.
...(4) St. Mary's: Private, catholic, decent academics.
...(5) BYU: Urban-ish, private, religious, good academics.
...(6) Richmond: Private, urban, great academics.
...(7) VCU: State school, huge enrollment, improving academics, urban.

I'm not getting into the budgets etc because I think the facilities are a more important factor. Location is something I think I should explain because it is multi-faceted in my opinion. Location is important for the obvious reasons, recruiting and travel, but it is much more than that. Sports are the front porch of the university and as such are viewed as a recruiting tool for average students. I don't think Big East membership helps Gonzaga recruit East Coast or Southern students, but membership in the WCC may help their visibility on the West Coast. Likewise, having Gonzaga or BYU in the conference probably doesn't bring more West Coast or Mormon kids to the Midwest or East Coast.

I also think fans are massively important due to keeping average attendance up there with other power conferences and getting butts to MSG.

Just for fun I'll throw in Bonaventure:

A.) (8) with 6 NCAA tourney appearances, 3 sweet 16s, 1 (old) FF, one conference tourney title, 5 regular season championships.
B.) (7 of 8) Reilly Center holds 5,500 and no practice facility.
C.) (7 of 8) averaged 4,040 fans in a really good year.
D.) (7 of 8) Sort of within the footprint, which puts them ahead of St. Mary's.
E.) Probably tied with Dayton.


ONCE AGAIN, STAY AT 10. THIS IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.


EDIT: Gun to my head, you have to add two teams now and 5 years down the road if your teams don't outperform those that weren't added (exclusive of Gonzaga due to geography) you get shot in the foot I'd take VCU and Dayton. SLU is my long-term potential school and I still believe that long-term they will live up to that due to the resources they have put into the program.

[marquette]

2 big issues with this:
1- tourney units.
Wichita- still has 1 from 2012, 5 from 13, 2 from 14, 3 from 15, 3 from 16
Dayton- still has 4 from 2014, 3 from 2015, 1 from 2016
St Louis- still has 2 from 2012, 2 from 13, 2 from 14
St Joe's- has 1 from 2014, 2 from 16
Richmond- has 3 from 2011
GW- has 1 from 14
VCU- has 2 from 13, 1 from 14, 1 from 15, 2 from 16(just from A10)
Davidson- has 1 from 2015(just from A10)
Valpo- has 1 from 13, 1 from 15
Belmont- has 1 from 13, 1 from 15(just from OVC).

2- auto bid into NCAA tourney. This would be a new league. So would take I think it's now 8 years to get a bid.

1-Correct, although they may be able to get a good tv deal to offset those losses considering the brand names.

2-False. Much like the Big East was a "new league" legally when they separated from the AAC (technically the successor entity to the Big East), that league would have 7 teams that had played together in a league and would be eligible for an auto-bid the first year.

the problem is none of those teams would have played together for the length necessary(I think it's like 5 years).... That's why the NBE was able to get an auto bid- as it had 7 teams that had played together for long enough.

Fair enough. I forgot that Davidson is a new addition.

[stever20]

Marquette-
What really has BYU done though? They have 1 sweet 16 in the 64 team era. 15 program NCAA wins in their history.
Gonzaga has 22 program wins in their history along with 7 sweet 16's.
VCU now has 13 program NCAA wins in their history....

I can see Gonzaga #1, but no way would I put BYU ahead of VCU. or Dayton(with 19 program wins). Their resume frankly isn't close to Gonzaga. At all!!!

[marquette]

Marquette-
What really has BYU done though? They have 1 sweet 16 in the 64 team era. 15 program NCAA wins in their history.
Gonzaga has 22 program wins in their history along with 7 sweet 16's.
VCU now has 13 program NCAA wins in their history....

I can see Gonzaga #1, but no way would I put BYU ahead of VCU. or Dayton(with 19 program wins). Their resume frankly isn't close to Gonzaga. At all!!!

30 NCAA tourney appearances, and to me the fact that some of them came when the NCAA took fewer teams is a bigger accomplishment than being team #68 and winning a PIG. Also 31 conference regular season championships and 3 tournament titles. It's fine if you don't agree, feel free to make your own list.

[stever20]

Marquette-
What really has BYU done though? They have 1 sweet 16 in the 64 team era. 15 program NCAA wins in their history.
Gonzaga has 22 program wins in their history along with 7 sweet 16's.
VCU now has 13 program NCAA wins in their history....

I can see Gonzaga #1, but no way would I put BYU ahead of VCU. or Dayton(with 19 program wins). Their resume frankly isn't close to Gonzaga. At all!!!

30 NCAA tourney appearances, and to me the fact that some of them came when the NCAA took fewer teams is a bigger accomplishment than being team #68 and winning a PIG. Also 31 conference regular season championships and 3 tournament titles. It's fine if you don't agree, feel free to make your own list.

but in a way- 15 wins in 30 tourney appearances is even worse.

BYU- 18 appearances since 1985 expansion, with 7 wins(1 being in PIG)
VCU- 11 appearances since 1985 expansion, with 10 wins(1 being in PIG), 1 final 4.
Dayton- 9 appearances since 1985 expansion, with 7 wins(1 being in PIG)
(Gonzaga by the way- 19 appearances since 1985 expansion, with 24 wins)
Wichita(since Rasmussen mentioned them)- 9 appearances since 1985 expansion, with 11 wins(1 being in PIG). 1 final 4

I just can't see saying BYU is close to Gonzaga based on what they did 35 years ago. BYU has had a lot of chances, but has never taken advantage of those chances at all whatsoever.

Gonzaga head and shoulders above the other 3 IMO. I personally take VCU

[Hoya33]

Here is the criteria: keep it east coast, urban, facilities, tv markets, and well- endowed ( in the age of Internet education, private schools are going to stumble quickly).

I do not care about past performance. Someone has to finish last.


Boston University

Richmond University

[Jet915]

Marquette-
What really has BYU done though? They have 1 sweet 16 in the 64 team era. 15 program NCAA wins in their history.
Gonzaga has 22 program wins in their history along with 7 sweet 16's.
VCU now has 13 program NCAA wins in their history....

I can see Gonzaga #1, but no way would I put BYU ahead of VCU. or Dayton(with 19 program wins). Their resume frankly isn't close to Gonzaga. At all!!!

It's not JUST resume, it's about fit. Sure, BYU isn't catholic but they are private religious, have a huge national following as well.....if Gonzaga left, I'm sure they would love to follow.

[trephin]

If Val wants to expand for whatever reasons. Gonzaga and UCONN should be priority #1. After that, VCU and Dayton. SLU is awful right now, and I wouldn't make a bet that they are quick to rebound (aka "The Depaul bet").

Wasn't DePaul pretty successful in their last several years in CUSA? It might not have been Ray Meyer but I don't remember thinking at the time it was say ECU or USF being added for basketball.

BTW, I'm surprised the records stever posted... I thought VCU was much more successful than Dayton but agree with everyone else who thinks VCU's issues aren't on court related.

It's not exactly the same, but if we don't see exceptions for a school with 30 years of shared history in UConn, I don't see BYU due to football

[gosports1]

my critique of the usual suspects.


UCONN= Not happening. Time to give up this fantasy. They play FB and have aspirations to join the ACC or B1G (or even the B12 if asked) they wont give up this dream.

BYU --Nope. Football and they are too far away. Creighton is the westernmost outpost that is tolerable

ST BONAVENTURE, BOSTON U ,SIENA, DUQUESNE, ST JOES, HOLY CROSS all have one or more of following issues: small or duplicate market, no fan base, little or no history of BB success, None of them appear to be trying to step it up and make aname for themselves so that they are more attractive to other leagues

FAIRFIELD, QUINNIPIAC, FORDHAM,NORTHEASTERN, DETROIT,LOYOLA MD this group has not really been seriously suggested and fall into same category as the bunch above

GONZAGA Fits in everyway except a big one geography. If they were in Pittsburgh, Boston or Minneapolis they would be a no brainer. The distance issie would wearout quickly IMO. I look to ND as an example, they are leaving Hockey East to join the dreaded B1G due in large part to being an island in the league and they are in the same time zone, have tons of $$$$ and only had to worry about one sport, that plays all its games on weekends

DAYTON Would be a great add. Close to Xavier but so what. Good BB trumps that. Seton Hall and SJU are close to each othe. In the old BE PC was close to both BC and UConn yet it worked


ST LOUIS Thinking like a president a good match. BB lagging a bit, but long term they are exactly the type of school/program the other BE institutions want to associate with when times are good and not so good

RICHMOND IMO they are the southern version of SLU in a smaller market and another player to compete with for that market

DAVIDSON They have had success and like George Mason were the darlings of past tourneys. However very small school. do they have the following? Where do they even stand in their own state? Behind UNC, Duke, NC State, Wake at best. where do they rank if you add in Charlotte, ECU, Appy State or any of the other UNC locations like Greensboro

VCU Certainly has the success and fan base. Biggest drawback doesn't fit the identity that the BE currently has (and seems to want) as a private school conference

WICHITA ST Has been hot lately but otherwise they are not a fit

DENVER,ST MARYS PORTLAND or ANY of the WCC schools too far too small not enough success of late or all of the above

[NJRedman]

Just so thrilled to see another expansion thread on here; I'll admit I was wrong. I predicted within three years the BE would add SLU and Dayton, and unless an announcement comes soon, I was off. I still think the BE goes to twelve in the near future and I still think its Dayton and St. Louis. Here are just a few points/opinions which I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with.

1. There is the P5, and then everyone else. I hate to say this and I don't agree with it, but the general scope is anything outside of the P5 no one cares about. We all know football drives the bus and is what started this whole thing. We can be bias as we want and as much as I personally love the BE and the A10, those inside the P5 look at these leagues are irrelevant. Sorry, but it is what it is. I do think the BE has the chance to change this perception given their tv deal with FOX, but they are down to less than ten years to prove themselves. You can consider the BE a major conference now because let's face it; what is this all about? Money! Another huge TV deal when the fox contract is up would be ideal for the BE. Again, maybe I'm wrong but I don't see the BE getting another huge TV deal with only a ten team league with no football.

2. If you want eyes on the tv screens and butts in the seats at MSG, then you need to add teams with large fan bases; SLU and Dayton will do that. Say what you want about Xavier being in the same market as Dayton and the hatred X has for Dayton, but look at the numbers ESPN releases every year. Dayton is always a top market for tv viewership for basketball. With SLU and UD getting over 12,000 and more a game it is hard to consider them mid-major; again, they are with the "everyone else outside the P5.

3. Please, please, please quit bringing up Gonzaga and UCONN. It is not happening. No way will Gonzaga have a deal with the BE with that long travel for just basketball. They have to make a home for all sports because the WCC has said publicly that if Gonzaga leaves all sports go. How will Gonzaga play a volleyball game at Seton Hall or Villanova on a weekday night? Come on guys... get serious. UCONN is not dropping football; their alumni and donors will destroy the program because it took them years and years to get funding for D1 football in the first place.

Maybe the BE expands, maybe it doesn't. But I do think if the league wants to be considered a major and competitive with the P5 it is going to be very difficult with only 10 teams; if the BE wants to stay at ten, then a helluva lot more teams other than VIllanova better step up on court success to earn $$$ from NCAA units.

The WCC didn't say it f Gonzaga bball goes so does there another sports. That's an NCAA rule, they wouldn't have to say it the school already knows it.