Big East in Tourney

[SJHooper]

So many mixed feelings.

On one hand, I want to say the NCAA's are a total crap shoot where you need plenty of luck and some favorable matchups. After all, George Mason made the Final Four not long ago. There were also plenty of mid majors upsetting major programs this year. But at the same time, the huge football schools always seem to make the Final Four and eventually win with few exceptions. As much as I'd like to say that the football schools don't have an advantage in the SEC/PAC12/B1G/ACC/Big 12, they certainly seem to. Though they may squeak by opponents, they just seem to be able to do what they need to win. It worries me that the last non-football school to win the tourney was Nova in 1985, 4 years before I was even born (I'm 26). To me, that shows there is some clear advantage being a big football school. Whether it's the money, the resources, the training, the facilities, etc. they are clearly at an advantage. I honestly thought we could hold our own in the tourney when the new Big East began 3 years ago, but after 3 straight years of flat out bad performances, it has me worried.

This was supposed to be the year we got 2 if not 3 teams in the Sweet 16 and hopefully 1 to the Elite 8 or Final Four. Instead, we get 1 team in the Sweet 16 in Nova and even if they make the Final Four or win it all, many pundits will still claim that the Big East is garbage except for Nova. They will see us as the WCC with Nova being our Gonzaga. This scares me. I know we keep saying eventually we will break the curse, but eventually it actually has to happen and that's just being honest. I realize the PAC12 sucked this year. I realize the SEC sucked this year. But they have nothing to prove because they play major football and ESPN will always treat them as above us. We have a ton to prove, they don't. To be totally honest, I am worried about this conference and think the only way we could get back to being a national power (that makes frequent deep runs and top 25 appearances) is if we got UConn back and made it a national conference with Gonzaga and the like. I still have hope so don't get me wrong, but seeing 3 straight awful performances in the tourney is aggravating, especially because we ARE so talented, but it doesn't show in the results. Yes we were great in the regular season and held our own in the OOC, and yes it's unfair to judge a conference's strength based on tourney results alone, but that's life in college basketball. If you don't show up come tourney time, even if it's a loss at a buzzer, unfortunately you will be dismissed by many as overrated. I don't agree with it at all, but that's the game and culture right now.

The potential is there for something great in this conference, but I'd be lying if I wasn't worried about the future of this conference. It has gotten so bad IMO that even if Nova wins, we will still look bad overall as a conference and be seen as a one trick pony (the way UConn is in the AAC). This is not me being dramatic or trying to start anything. This is just me being honest. There has been a clear separation between the Football 5 and us. Not in the regular season, but in the tourney it's clear as day. It can't all just be boiled down to luck when a non-football school hasn't won since 85. And it kills me saying that. I hope I eat my words and get proven dead wrong, but this 3rd straight bad tourney was very sobering.

[GoldenWarrior11]

ESPN just had a whole blurb on how Gonzaga is the only school left in the tournament from a non-power conference. If ESPN is even beginning to change its tune on the strength of the Big East, I'd say we will be fine.

We are in no danger of losing any members - first time in Big East conference history.

We had two top-5 teams in the AP for a duration of the season, and we had, at one point, three top-10 teams.

We are averaging five teams into the tournament per year (50% of the conference).

Our TV ratings and exposure have increased each year since we moved to FOX.

Our Big East tournament attendance was the highest its been since our reorganization - and we had nearly 20,000 people at MSG for the championship game.

We will be fine. Losing, and especially getting upset, hurts and will sting for a while. However, we need to look at the bigger picture of things - most importantly the fact that Villanova is still alive and can only help (not hurt) the Big East's reputation.

[stever20]

I think the only way this year turns really into a negative would be if Nova got boat raced like they did vs Oklahoma. That would present the rest of the world with the opening to dis the conference.....

what I feel the tourneys have been just is a lost opportunity. Xavier had a real shot and couldn't convert in the last 7 minutes. Seton Hall had a lot of frankly bad luck. Butler and PC were in no mans land of the 9 seed. Eventually we need to convert.

[SJHooper]

Nice post Golden, and yes as I said our regular season was very strong. So strong that even ESPN had to tip their cap to us. But again, that was the regular season. We all know the conference is great when we have a big sample size. But when it comes down to it, when the pressure is on and the country is watching closely, for some reason as a conference we cannot get it done thus far. UVA barely beat Butler, but they still beat them. No one will remember how close Butler was, they will remember that UVA won. I love all of our members and greatly appreciate the contributions from the new guys like Butler, Xavier, Creighton, etc. but in the tournament we just seem to choke overall. Like I said, there just seems to be a clear line between the football 5 schools and us in the tourney. How can you explain the crazy stat that no basketball only school has won since 1985? That is an eternity and even if Nova wins again this year that's twice since 1985 and still crazy. If non-football schools were routinely making the Final Four and winning championships every few years, I'd feel much better. But there's a clear pattern to winning rings in the tourney and that common denominator seems to be big football schools.

[whiteandblue77]

ESPN just had a whole blurb on how Gonzaga is the only school left in the tournament from a non-power conference. If ESPN is even beginning to change its tune on the strength of the Big East, I'd say we will be fine.

We are in no danger of losing any members - first time in Big East conference history.

We had two top-5 teams in the AP for a duration of the season, and we had, at one point, three top-10 teams.

We are averaging five teams into the tournament per year (50% of the conference).

Our TV ratings and exposure have increased each year since we moved to FOX.

Our Big East tournament attendance was the highest its been since our reorganization - and we had nearly 20,000 people at MSG for the championship game.

We will be fine. Losing, and especially getting upset, hurts and will sting for a while. However, we need to look at the bigger picture of things - most importantly the fact that Villanova is still alive and can only help (not hurt) the Big East's reputation.

[jfan]

SJHooper, as you pointed out, we are in better shape in the tournament than 2 of the football five. I don't see that as them separating from us. I understand they have an inherent perception advantage as football schools, but of all the non-football conferences, we have shown up better this year than anyone. I think the conference has proven a lot this year. There are teams out there that would love to get into this conference because they know the future is bright. I didn't expect us to get three into the S16 and we were one 3 point shot from matching my personal expectation of two in the S16. The one thing I think we need to do in the future is toughen up our OOC schedules so we can get higher seeds in the tournament (Creighton was a big offender on this). As people have pointed out, 8-9 seeds are tough. I really do understand your angst, but I still think things are looking up. Not that we can't do things to improve our national perception, but if ESPN thinks we are a power conference, that is a huge step!

[ChestRockwell85]

I don't see any Big East teams dropping off the map, and the fact DePaul is getting a new arena, and with Mullin and crew in Queens, I am hoping that DePaul and St. John's (I am not really worried about SJU to be honest, I think Mullin is already on track) are only going to get better and continue to make the Big East tougher.

The bottom line is if, we had the year we did this year, and got 3 teams into the Sweet 16, instead of 1, this year would have been a tremendous year in the Big East. Winning in March isn't easy, that is why myself and other Villanova fans get so defensive on here.

It is all about recruiting, gotta keep the kids wanting to play in the Big East, and sell the fact they will be playing in a conference where basketball is King, and they will never have to take a backseat to football, and we will be fine.

[SJUBBALL]

If everyone thinks the conference is garbage besides nova, that's progress.

Because nova gets no national respect. Some nova fan put together a slide show of hundreds of tweets saying how nova will not make it out of the first weekend. On top of that you have multiple "experts"' like Clark Kellogg who picked Iowa to win, and Doug Gottileb who's hated Nova for years.

If Nova gets national respect, that's a start, the rest will have to follow

[SJUBBALL]

I think the only way this year turns really into a negative would be if Nova got boat raced like they did vs Oklahoma. That would present the rest of the world with the opening to dis the conference.....

what I feel the tourneys have been just is a lost opportunity. Xavier had a real shot and couldn't convert in the last 7 minutes. Seton Hall had a lot of frankly bad luck. Butler and PC were in no mans land of the 9 seed. Eventually we need to convert.

Nova isn't getting blown out by anyone

[GumbyDamnit!]

Like I said, there just seems to be a clear line between the football 5 schools and us in the tourney. How can you explain the crazy stat that no basketball only school has won since 1985? That is an eternity and even if Nova wins again this year that's twice since 1985 and still crazy. If non-football schools were routinely making the Final Four and winning championships every few years, I'd feel much better. But there's a clear pattern to winning rings in the tourney and that common denominator seems to be big football schools.

I think you are mistaken in the premise that there is a correlation between being a football school and being good in college basketball. Success in FBS football has little to no effect on the success of its BB program.

There have been 30 NC's since Nova in 1985.

UCONN is not a FB school (4).
Duke is not a FB school (5).
Kansas is not a FB school (2).
Kentucky is barely a FB school, and only b/c they are in the SEC; but clearly a BB first school (3).
Louisville is barely a FB school (but clearly a BB school) (2)-
UNC is a BB school first (3)
Indiana is a BB school first (1)
UNLV is BB school (1)
Syracuse is a BB school (1)

Questionable FB or BB schools:
Arizona (1)
UCLA (1)

The only true "FB schools" as you mentioned are the following:
Florida (2) - But Billy Donovan is not walking through that door any time soon.
Mich St (1) - they have a HOF coach
Michigan (1) - '90
Maryland (1) - '89
Arkansas (1) - '94

So 6 FB schools out of 30 and some of those were good BB programs long before the P5.

So your fear is misplaced IMO. UK is not good at BB because they are in the SEC. They could be in the A10 and they'd still be preseason Top 10 every year. Same with Kansas, Duke and UConn. These are the teams we are competing against mostly, not Alabama, Ohio State, Auburn, Tennessee, Penn State, Clemson, Nebraska, USC, UGA, FL St.

We have a good thing going. Relax and let it grow. And wait for the old guard ACC and B10 coaches (Pitino, Boeheim, Williams, Izzo, Coach K, etc.) to retire and let's see if those programs can sustain themselves at the same level.