Still hearing SLU and Dayton or Richmond in 2014

[yorost]

The only con that VCU has and the only reason they haven't already been invited is that VCU is a public school with over 30,000 students. If you look past that con, VCU is a perfect fit for the Big East basketball-only league.

No, not at all, and I'm to the point where I probably want VCU in. The notion that if VCU's basketball program were at a private school it would have already been invited is bunk. It weights far too heavily on the recent success of the program, recent success which includes a grand total of one Sweet Sixteen in the program's history. The success just isn't very far ahead of the other candidates in the discussion. A better resume? Sure, A dominating resume? No way. Prior to the Final Four run VCU would not have even been in the discussion, Dayton would have looked a lot more tempting in 2010, and maybe George Mason would be the dark horse school. Many schools have a hit runs and fade away, VCU just hasn't put so much up in its history that they're a comfortable add. None of the current candidates are comfortable adds. Take a look at tournament resumes for all 10 current Big East schools, I'd take every one of them over VCU's, except probably Creighton since it's Sweet Sixteens are so old. VCU;'s big argument is their Final Four run only a few years past. That's shaky. If you'd had the fan support of Dayton or Creighton for the past decade or two, it would go a long way, but without it there's a warning sign popping up about what happens if your program fades for a few years. All programs have ups and downs, if VCU sheds support in a few down years they become a stupid addition. Every time Shaka turns schools down that question looks less troublesome, but it is there.

[Edrick]

After the 2007 season, no program that anyone is talking about was the equal to the resume Southern Illinois brought to the table.

http://www.bbstate.com/schools/SIU/tournament

Since then SIU has went 18-15, 13-18, 15-15, 13-19, 8-23, and 14-14......

You dont sacrifice on standards, because that can and will happen to most everyone. At the end of the day, the collective is stronger if the formulation is much as it is now.

[Formerlydawgsstudent]

That Southern Illinois decline is directly in conjunction with Chris Lowery taking over for Bruce Weber and not being anywhere near as good of a recruiter as Weber had been.

[BillEsq]

After the 2007 season, no program that anyone is talking about was the equal to the resume Southern Illinois brought to the table.

http://www.bbstate.com/schools/SIU/tournament

Since then SIU has went 18-15, 13-18, 15-15, 13-19, 8-23, and 14-14......

You dont sacrifice on standards, because that can and will happen to most everyone. At the end of the day, the collective is stronger if the formulation is much as it is now.

That is only if you think the resume was winning a mid-major conference. St. Louis plays SIU every year and usually handles them. During that high point of SIU in the 2000-20009 seasons SIU barely pulled to .500 bball with SLU. In short SIU at its best is about as good as SLU on average. The only difference is that SLU played in a harder conference overall and has less tourney appearances to show for it. (you can say the same for Dayton and Richmond but since SLU and SIU play every year it is just an easier diagram), This is why you can't simply go off tourney appearances you have to look at other factors.

[Edrick]

The years in question the Valley was at least the equal of the A-10.

The A-10 was not a superior conference vis-a-vis the Missouri Valley for the decade preceding last season tangently SLU would have been equally as relevant as a member of the MVC.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0607.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0506.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0405.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0304.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0203.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0102.htm

[yorost]

After the 2007 season, no program that anyone is talking about was the equal to the resume Southern Illinois brought to the table.

http://www.bbstate.com/schools/SIU/tournament

Since then SIU has went 18-15, 13-18, 15-15, 13-19, 8-23, and 14-14......

You dont sacrifice on standards, because that can and will happen to most everyone. At the end of the day, the collective is stronger if the formulation is much as it is now.

That is only if you think the resume was winning a mid-major conference. St. Louis plays SIU every year and usually handles them. During that high point of SIU in the 2000-20009 seasons SIU barely pulled to .500 bball with SLU. In short SIU at its best is about as good as SLU on average. The only difference is that SLU played in a harder conference overall and has less tourney appearances to show for it. (you can say the same for Dayton and Richmond but since SLU and SIU play every year it is just an easier diagram), This is why you can't simply go off tourney appearances you have to look at other factors.

SIU was pulling in at large bids, not automatics. What you're saying only applies if they were relying on automatic bids. St. Louis would have an advantage being in a stronger conference, for an at large.

[BillEsq]

The years in question the Valley was at least the equal of the A-10.

The A-10 was not a superior conference vis-a-vis the Missouri Valley for the decade preceding last season tangently SLU would have been equally as relevant as a member of the MVC.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0607.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0506.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0405.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0304.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0203.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/s ... kc0102.htm

While the MVC might have been on par with the A-10 during those years, SLU was from 02-05 in CUSA. Granted they were playing shoddy low quality teams such as Louisville, Cincinnati, Marquette, Depaul (pre current AD), Memphis etc. Obviously the competition in the CUSA was well below the MVC

Really the MVC was at a highpoint during those years however it only placed ahead of the A-10 post CUSA breakup 3 times '06, '07 and 08 (you left that one out). At which point SIU was trading home wins and away losses with Slu. But I agree Slu had it been in the MoValley would have been equally as relevant. It has more staying power than SIU, and the conference tourney is played in St. Louis that alone would have added a few more NCAA appearances in all likely hood.

However you stated that SIU was superior to SLU, Dayton, Richmond. That just is not true at their best they pulled to even with SLU at a time when SLU was playing a little below their 20 year average.

[BillEsq]

After the 2007 season, no program that anyone is talking about was the equal to the resume Southern Illinois brought to the table.

http://www.bbstate.com/schools/SIU/tournament

Since then SIU has went 18-15, 13-18, 15-15, 13-19, 8-23, and 14-14......

You dont sacrifice on standards, because that can and will happen to most everyone. At the end of the day, the collective is stronger if the formulation is much as it is now.

Ed, I do think i misread your first post. If you are comparing SIU to VCU i can see some similarities. They are both hot at the moment schools. I agree with you that we should not simply add schools because of a couple of years of recent success. I think you should look at a schools ability to compete long term with top 100 SOS opponents. I don't want seem like i'm bashing SIU they were always a decent OCC opponent and are SLU's closest thing to a local rival. Its really a shame as to how far their program has stumbled. Hopefully they can pick it back up.

[Edrick]

However you stated that SIU was superior to SLU, Dayton, Richmond. That just is not true at their best they pulled to even with SLU at a time when SLU was playing a little below their 20 year average.

Putting aside the public thing, which is of course a non-starter, the three schools you listed aren't even comparable. SLU would have to do what they did the last couple years for a decade to equal that level, and thats just going to happen. The recruiting hasn't been and frankly isn't now at a level where maintenance is at all probable. Dayton hasn't had that kind of success since the 60s. Richmond? Similar to SLU is that regard. Regardless, this has nothing to do with those schools not possessing the requisite success. It is about why conferences with long-term focus shouldn't compromise on make-up.

[BillEsq]

However you stated that SIU was superior to SLU, Dayton, Richmond. That just is not true at their best they pulled to even with SLU at a time when SLU was playing a little below their 20 year average.

Putting aside the public thing, which is of course a non-starter, the three schools you listed aren't even comparable. SLU would have to do what they did the last couple years for a decade to equal that level, and thats just going to happen. The recruiting hasn't been and frankly isn't now at a level where maintenance is at all probable. Dayton hasn't had that kind of success since the 60s. Richmond? Similar to SLU is that regard. Regardless, this has nothing to do with those schools not possessing the requisite success. It is about why conferences with long-term focus shouldn't compromise on make-up.

It still seems odd to me, I don't know of very many people who would honestly tell you that they think that SIU is that much better than SLU. The best thing about this is that SLU and SIU actually play a long running series, its a fun series, good local rivalry that both teams get up for. In this series St. Louis has a long history of being the team with the upperhand. I admit its difficult to compare Dayton and Richmond to SIU as they don't play each other often. But in Slu's stance they play often and the schools are only about an hour or two apart, and St Louis is clearly the better team.

In regards to your fears of St. Louis maintaining their current level. St. Louis has done nothing different now than it has over the past 30 years. If you look at Stl's history it plays a tough SOS, finishes usually in the top 100 rpi. In the past 20 years Slu has more 20 plus win seasons then loosing seasons. (even if you take this last year out). As far as recruiting we have most of the team returning next year, and so far have a pretty good class coming in. So, don't worry about Slu they will be just fine A-10 or BE.