Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[aughnanure]

Capel and Grant had started VCU on their way though.
They were there for 7 years. Had 3 NCAA appearances. Had 1 25 win season(and 2 24 win seasons along with a 23 win season).

VCU had been to the tourney 3 of the 6 years before Smart took over.

And most of the country had heard of VCU in 2006-07 when they beat Duke in the tourney(and then lost to Pitt in OT).

3 out of 6 isn't some amazing number. The concern is that they are still relatively a new name to most fans, and don't have decades of history to sustain a bad hire. This is a perilous time, as it is a lot easier to fall down a peg than rise up.

But no one is immune to this, just some have a slightly easier time rising up after a change or a bad hire. Marquette got lucky with Buzz walking into a loaded team his first year. This time with Wojo is a lot closer to what should be expected when you have a major coaching change. So bringing back the experience VCU will will help the transition and perception of the program. I think they'll be solid, but will they be equal to what they were with Shaka or will it be more like the 3 out of 6 years?

Does anyone remember Southern Illinois in the mid 2000s? 6 straight tourney appearances. 2 Sweet Sixteens. Bruce Weber, then Matt Painter, then Chris Lowry kept it going for a little bit before falling down to earth and getting fired

I do agree with you about the ability to sustain a bad hire. I think the fact they have 2 guys who were assistants who could come back to the program with head coaching experience is very important. And I think them relying maybe a little bit less on Havoc could make them even better.

Where VCU is different than Southern Illinois is that the period before the run you bring up, they weren't all that good at all. So it was just a 6 year run there, compared to really a 13 year run at VCU.

No, I know, it's not a perfect comparison. I'm just using it as an example of 'look how quickly we all forgot about them'. Capel would be a good hire, but I feel he'll be getting his 2nd power conference job soon. Plus, it is just so rare for a program to rehire a coach that left them before (ahem DePaul).

[Bill Marsh]

I don't think SLU's fanbase was ever that big even when they had Majerus.

On another note, with Shaka leaving VCU it is completely up in the air how their program will be in 5 years. More and more I think we are better off waiting 5 years to see who is still standing after the next P5 shakeup + coaches leaving.

Why is it up in the air any more than it is when any program changes coaches? They won before Shaka was there and they'll win after he's gone. They have great facilities, a strong fan base, and have now built a solid tradition. They're fine.

Oh c'mon man, he was VCU. I am not saying that VCU was nothing but I know I had never heard of them before his Final Four run and nor had most of the country.

The question is, why is their future up in the air now, not 6 years ago?

Before the Final Four run, basketball fans certainly knew who they were. Those who didn't, know now. They've gone to the tournament 8 of the past 12 years. That's what's most relevant to fans today, not what happened in the '90's or before.

[Bill Marsh]

Capel and Grant had started VCU on their way though.
They were there for 7 years. Had 3 NCAA appearances. Had 1 25 win season(and 2 24 win seasons along with a 23 win season).

VCU had been to the tourney 3 of the 6 years before Smart took over.

And most of the country had heard of VCU in 2006-07 when they beat Duke in the tourney(and then lost to Pitt in OT).

3 out of 6 isn't some amazing number. The concern is that they are still relatively a new name to most fans, and don't have decades of history to sustain a bad hire. This is a perilous time, as it is a lot easier to fall down a peg than rise up.

The 3 tournament appearances with the win over Duke before Shaka got there established a foundation, which he built on. The school now has 8 tournaments in the past dozen years with 3 different coaches. That is impressive.

[Hoyas]

I agree that VCU could get the look how quickly we forget about them if they fall off here. But the key is that I don't think they're going to fall off. They have twice as long of a stretch of good play compared to Southern Illinois. That is important. Also the A10 is a lot more visible than the MVC was.

[XUFan09]

God, I loved that win over Duke (and I proudly picked it in my bracket ). Maybe I'm confabulating, but if I recall correctly, didn't Eric Maynor hit a pull-up jumper with like five seconds to go to win the game?

This isn't a perfect comparison, but VCU is somewhat comparable to Butler. Before their runs to the Final Four, a lot of serious college basketball fans knew about both programs, but when it came to casual fans, it seemed that people in the Midwest only knew about Butler's sustained success and people in the East only knew about VCU's sustained success. I'm going off the Xavier boards for this assessment. Basically, someone from Ohio, Indiana, etc., would suggest that VCU is nothing without Smart, only for people from the DC/MD/VA area to quickly shut them down for not knowing what they're talking about.

[GoldenWarrior11]

VCU is unquestioningly a strong program, and would improve the Big East's basketball quality significantly. Whether it was under Smart, Grant or Capel, they won games and made the tournament consistently. Under those coaches (since 2002), they have made 8 NCAA Tournaments, won 5 conference tournaments, and were 4-time regular season conference champions.

Having said that, my two red flags are:

1.) It is a public institution. At present, the Big East is one of just a few conferences that has all the schools aligned in terms of institutional fit (private/Catholic schools), big media markets (largely populated cities) and a clear drive and emphasis towards being a top basketball program. VCU obviously meets the basketball emphasis, as it doesn't have football, but it is a public institution. Even if it added another public school (UConn, Wichita State, etc.), those public schools will always be outnumbered in conference talks. After what happened in the old Big East between the football/non-football schools, it would be hard to argue against keeping the league with like minded institutions. VCU doesn't fit that.

2.) Although it made the Final Four, VCU (under Smart, Grant, Capel, et al) has advanced to the Sweet 16 just once in its program history. For all of the mid-major luster it has given the media over the past several years, it has only made noise in the NCAA Tournament one time (2011 Final Four run). They have made an equal amount of Sweet 16s, Elite Eights and Final Fours as George Mason, who similarly had one great year (2006).

My counter point to VCU would be, as an example, Davidson - a private institution. Davidson has reached more Elite Eights (3 to 1) and Sweet 16s (4 to 1) in its program's history. It has similar NCAA Tournament appearances (13 to 14), more conference tournament championships (12 to 9) and more regular season conference championships (24 to 9). While I don't think Davidson will ever be seriously considered for a Big East invitation in my lifetime, Butler, Xavier and Creighton all brought serious credentials into the Big East (and have more than deserved their invitations as they have seriously helped elevate our league to being a top conference). I don't see what VCU (or Wichita State, or Saint Louis or Dayton) currently bring to the table to help make the conference better.

[Bill Marsh]

God, I loved that win over Duke (and I proudly picked it in my bracket ). Maybe I'm confabulating, but if I recall correctly, didn't Eric Maynor hit a pull-up jumper with like five seconds to go to win the game?

This isn't a perfect comparison, but VCU is somewhat comparable to Butler. Before their runs to the Final Four, a lot of serious college basketball fans knew about both programs, but when it came to casual fans, it seemed that people in the Midwest only knew about Butler's sustained success and people in the East only knew about VCU's sustained success. I'm going off the Xavier boards for this assessment. Basically, someone from Ohio, Indiana, etc., would suggest that VCU is nothing without Smart, only for people from the DC/MD/VA area to quickly shut them down for not knowing what they're talking about.

It's a great comparison.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Butler and VCU aren't really comparable. Butler went to two consecutive NCAA Championship games, and went to four Sweet 16's in the past 10 years. VCU went to one Final Four - and that was it. Both have made the tournament on regular basis, but only one program had sustained success in the tournament (Butler). Both had brand-name coaches (both since have moved on), though - I'll give you that.

[muskienick]

Catholics are known for being proactive, we should be fine.

Dude, I think you meant to say 'procreative'!

[Hoyas]

The problem using Davidson as a comparison- of their 13 appearances in the NCAA tourney, 7 have been since 1986 where it's an auto bid only reason they got in the tourney(with 0 wins in those 7 times) . This year was their only at large spot ever, and 1 other time where they were a 10 seed. Also, using tournaments in the '60's is a little bit of a stretch I would say, which is where 2 of their 3 elite 8's were from.

There is no basketball logic in VCU not being in the Big East. If Richmond did what VCU has done, they would be in without a question.