Xavier AD says expanding to 12 schools within 5 years

[DumpsterFireA10]

As a Saint Louis fan, I take objection to the distinguished gentleman from St. John's saying SLU would be a drain on the league.

[marquette]

It'll be a step down if we accept Dayton, VCU and St. Louis. I've been a Big East fan since 1985 and we have to add schools like Temple, Memphis and either Uconn or Cincinati. Who cares if they leave , it won't break us up. If they do decide to join it'll be on our terms with ACC type penalties for leaving. No offense to Creigton and Butler fans, but theres some doubt they can compete long term in the new Big East. Mamphis and Temple have long histories of success and will step in and be a force in the new league.
So the Big East should take it's time and build a powerful league. If we don't got the teams we might lose MSG going forward and Dayton, VCU and St. Louis bring very little. Sure it would be nice having more Catholic schools and I feel bad for the fans, but I've been a fan of the Big East for years and hate to see a watered down league.

We will not lose MSG. The ACC and the B1G are the only conferences that could possibly take it away from us, and neither is interested in the type of commitment MSG wants. MSG does not want to be "in the rotation" they want to be the show.

Temple will not happen. Ever. We have Villanova, that's all we need from Philadelphia. I wouldn't want UW-Milwaukee added if they had a few good years, St. John's wouldn't want Fordham, Providence wouldn't want UMass, Xavier-Cincinnati, the list goes on and on. The length of history is unimportant. The point is, we don't need or want to share markets and we don't need or want football schools. There are massive disadvantages to any of those schools. Memphis is about the worst institutional fit I can imagine. They have terrible academics, they have football (flight risk). UConn is not coming. A good basketball program is not all we are seeking. Here are the advantages of each team as I see them (and I would be ok with any, they all have their merits, I'm not going to insult schools by getting into what I view as their drawbacks):

Dayton: They have outstanding non-revenue sports. They are a solid academic institution, ranked just outside the top 100 (115, I believe) of national universities. They are a great institutional fit by being Catholic, private, and small. They have strong fan support and an established rivalry with a current member. They have a strong basketball tradition, and with a little luck could easily become very successful in the next couple of years. New market, similar in size to Omaha (metro).

Richmond: They have the most potential. Vast resources, high academic standing, and a large new market.Their recent basketball history is fairly good, with a sweet 16 in 2011 and an appearance in 2012. If the conference establishes any sort of academic cooperative organization they would be a wonderful resource. Small and private is also a good institutional fit, and it has been established Catholic is not necessary.

Saint Louis: The best overall fit. They have great academics (they are ranked 93 among national universities) and they have a large endowment (about half of Richmond's, but still substantial. Would be behind only Georgetown). Their basketball squad has made great strides recently, and could continue to be strong. Their soccer team is one of the strongest in the country, top 5 all time with 10 national championships. That may not make much of a difference to some here, but realize that the Big East is more committed to soccer than any other conference. We are the strongest soccer league in the country and adding a perennially top 25 team makes us even better. They would also be an easy rivalry for Marquette with the similarities institutionally, and the proximity. Plus, we kind of already compete for students (SLU was firmly on my list).

VCU: They provide a new market, the same as Richmond. They have the strongest basketball program over the last decade of any of the candidates. They appear to be very committed to their program, and have made a few good coaching hires in recent history. They generate a lot of alumni, and could provide a strong east coast presence for the tourney. They are, by all accounts, improving their academics which shows a commitment to the school as a whole, not just basketball.

Honorable mentions: Detroit Mercy, Davidson, Drake, St. Bonaventure, Siena, Duquesne, Loyola, Evansville. All are definitely long shots, but are pretty good institutional fits. With a couple good runs in the tourney, any of them could get on the radar.

Any of these schools bring something to the conference. Every one of them has an alumni presence in New York. Most of them have strong academics and good basketball. We would be improving in many ways by adding any of them.

[Jet915]

Marquette,
Agree with almost everything you said except you forget to mention that VCU is a terrible institutional fit (not as bad as Memphis of course) and Evansville? Where did you come up with that? Valley schools want them to leave and go to the Horizon, I don't even think the A-10 would want them even if they had a few years of success.

[DumpsterFireA10]

Marquette,
Agree with almost everything you said except you forget to mention that VCU is a terrible institutional fit (not as bad as Memphis of course) and Evansville? Where did you come up with that? Valley schools want them to leave and go to the Horizon, I don't even think the A-10 would want them even if they had a few years of success.

It was rumored that Evansville was going to the Horizon not long ago. I was kind of surprised by that myself. But the Loyola to the MVC announcement floored me.

I have to agree with most of Marquette's post as well. All 4 schools bring something different to the table, and present themselves differently. As I've said, I don't have issue with the individual A-10 schools. These are good basketball programs and good schools. My hatred for the A-10 is at the leadership level.

[marquette]

Marquette,
Agree with almost everything you said except you forget to mention that VCU is a terrible institutional fit (not as bad as Memphis of course) and Evansville? Where did you come up with that? Valley schools want them to leave and go to the Horizon, I don't even think the A-10 would want them even if they had a few years of success.

I did specifically state that I wasn't going into the negatives. I don't really want to argue the negative points for each, as that just winds up offending people. I think most have already been stated or are self-evident.

Evansville was only a little more out in left field than some of the other long shots I mentioned. They are a decent institutional fit, and had some small success in the 80's and 90's. Duquesne might actually be further out there. They haven't done anything since the 70's. Loyola has a national championship, but only 3 winning seasons since 1987. Detroit Mercy is the next level up, with 1 NCAA appearance in recent history (2012). Bonaventure is in the same boat (2012 appearance). Drake is right there with them with a tourney appearance in '08, and a decent history, although not recent. Then Siena, with NCAA appearances in '08, '09, '10 and 2 tourney wins. They lost their coach, though, and have a brand new one this year who shows promise (possible attempt to get into the league). Davidson has a lot of recent success with 5 tourney appearances in 10 years and an elite 8 in '08.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that we don't have to take football schools or duplicate markets. We have options, if we need them. Any team could step up and make an impression on the presidents. The 4 are great candidates, though, and I would be glad to have them.

And please refer to my signature for further explanation

[Natty]

It'll be a step down if we accept Dayton, VCU and St. Louis.

...says the St. John's fan.

Don't you guys have a losing record over the past decade? ("Oh but we played in the Big East".)

[Bill Marsh]

It has to be obvious that there is no program out there that as presently constituted met the criteria of the member institutions of the Big East. The 5 year time frame indicated by the Xavier AD tells us that they are going to wait and see who can step up.

With regard to VCU's institutional fit, we know that can be overcome or they wouldn't be on the list. There have to be reservations about that for all the good reasons presented in this thread. But this is kanbasketball first league and if no one else steps up, they have the #1 credential which is success on the court with fans in the seat in a market they can call their own. Ultimately what they have going for them is their East Coast geography. A 12 team league just begs for a 6th team in the East. If not VCU, then who?

Right now the only schools with institutional fit and success on the court are Gonzaga and St. Mary's. Obviously geography and logistics make them impossible to add. But that's the kind of success that aspiring programs will have to establish to be what the league is looking for. St. Louis took a first step innthatbdirection this year, but they're going to have to run off a string of tournament appearances to get where they need to be. They have the best profile, but if they back slide, they can play themselves out of the competition. There is nothing Automatic about them.

Dayton has the fan base but their program has to show a pulse on the court.

Richmond has all kinds of problems, which I don't know if they can overcome. First and foremost is the fact that even if VCU is not the right fit, it is clearly a program on the rise. If VCU continues to succesfullynbuildmits program, I don't see how Richmond is in the running. That market simply isn't big enough for 2 teams to compete in. Second is the size of the school. It is tiny with an enrollment of only 3000. If some thought PC is too small, Richmond is way too small. Third is the fact that it has never been demonstrated that any kind of program with major can be built and sustained at Richmond. That's 3 strikes. They obviously have their appeal to some like the Georgetown prez, but at the end of the day, there are just too many negatives.

If no one steps up and Fox insists on more inventory, I have to wonder if the league wouldn't be tempted to add a 5 team western division. That's where the schools with the best fit are right now. They would be bringing in some dead wood, but the thought of getting Gonzaga would have to have them salivating. If St. Mary's can continue their current success, they too would become very appealing. If BYU is serious about football independence, perhaps they could be in the mix. I don't know who the other 2 might be, but Santa Clara just won the CBI and San Francisco and Denver are programs on the rise. The next 5 years would obviously determine who might be considered. As wacky as it sounds, 3 5-team divisions would go a long way toward mitigating the problems with coast-to-coast travel. Do I think it will happen? No. But if they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, far out ideas suddenly get greater consideration.

Finally, if It came down to VCU as #11 with no good option for #12 AND of Wichita State maintains their current success, they could become a serious candidate, which they are not right now. If they're going to let in one public school, they might as well let in two. Do I think it will happen? No way. But again, see the rock and the hard place.

[Bluejay]

Honorable mentions: Detroit Mercy, Davidson, Drake, St. Bonaventure, Siena, Duquesne, Loyola, Evansville. All are definitely long shots, but are pretty good institutional fits. With a couple good runs in the tourney, any of them could get on the radar.

I think you've got the wrong Missouri Valley schools in your list. As a former, long term MVC member, I can tell you with a great deal of certainty that we do not want Evansville and probably don't want Drake (although I'd love their proximity to Omaha). Both of those schools were/are perennial cellar dwellers in the MVC over the last 15 years. Yes, Drake did have one magical season a few years back, which coincided with all of the traditional MVC powers being down at the same time. I like the idea of getting the BE into the state of Iowa, but I have a hard time believing that Drake can compete long term. They simply do not care enough about their athletic programs and their facilities are horrendous (arena is a essentially a high school gym). Evansville, like Drake, considers their season to be a success if they finish in the top half of the MVC.

If we are seriously talking about MVC schools, there are only two that really seem to be viable to me, Bradley and Wichita St. Both schools pass the "no football" litmus test which is so crucial among candidates. Wichita St is a horrible institutional fit though, so I don't see them being a likely candidate, although they have the history, fanbase and commitment to their athletic programs that we would want. Bradley is a good institutional fit (small, private, good academics). They have a tremendous basketball history and strong, loyal fan support that turns out even when the program isn't doing very well. Their previous coach really damaged that program and they are still digging out of that hole, but the outlook is very good. They have started upgrading facilities over the last few years and have several such projects still underway. The only drawback is that they are located in Peoria, which is pretty small and may be too close to Chicago for DePaul's liking. If DePaul doesn't have a problem with the proximity, I would say that we should keep an eye out for Bradley as a strong potential candidate in the years to come.

[WaitingPatiently]

A couple of thoughts on this....first expansion has a completely different feel for me than the initial 'formation'...my care about who is included is far lower

Second, if anyone learned from the debate 6 months ago....this is all a waste of time. All the facts, chest thumping, etc is a fruitless endeavor. Go back and read the general consensus prior to to 'leaks' just beforehand. A lot of completely off base stuff. Creighton can't be in at 10, but would be on the fence at 12. They're too far west. They haven't had as much success in the tournament as we're looking for. Georgetown wants Richmond, we all know Georgetown gets everything they want. VCU fans telling us they're the greatest and if this is truly about basketball there's no way they can't be included. On and on from many different parties and many different angles. That thread is comical to reread now that we know what actually transpired. When/if expansion happens, I'll bet that this thread will be similarly comical.

The main thing I learned from that process is that the presidents are running this completely. What they value isn't the same as what the basketball fans, coaches, or ADs value. That's different from things in the past. Presidents seem to want institutional fit first with commitment to athletics second. You don't fit, you don't get to the table. You aren't committed to your athletic programs, you don't stay at the table. Tradition and results don't seem to be of critical importance to them. Obviously that plays a role in commitment. Personal relationships between presidents of candidates and existing will play a bigger role than many are crediting.

[Bill Marsh]

A couple of thoughts on this....first expansion has a completely different feel for me than the initial 'formation'...my care about who is included is far lower

Second, if anyone learned from the debate 6 months ago....this is all a waste of time. All the facts, chest thumping, etc is a fruitless endeavor. Go back and read the general consensus prior to to 'leaks' just beforehand. A lot of completely off base stuff. Creighton can't be in at 10, but would be on the fence at 12. They're too far west. They haven't had as much success in the tournament as we're looking for. Georgetown wants Richmond, we all know Georgetown gets everything they want. VCU fans telling us they're the greatest and if this is truly about basketball there's no way they can't be included. On and on from many different parties and many different angles. That thread is comical to reread now that we know what actually transpired. When/if expansion happens, I'll bet that this thread will be similarly comical.

The main thing I learned from that process is that the presidents are running this completely. What they value isn't the same as what the basketball fans, coaches, or ADs value. That's different from things in the past. Presidents seem to want institutional fit first with commitment to athletics second. You don't fit, you don't get to the table. You aren't committed to your athletic programs, you don't stay at the table. Tradition and results don't seem to be of critical importance to them. Obviously that plays a role in commitment. Personal relationships between presidents of candidates and existing will play a bigger role than many are crediting.

You've given a nice critique of what's transpired in your first paragraph, but I disagree with your conclusions in the 2nd paragraph.

We do now have the decisions that they actually made to go by, so it's no longer a matter of pure speculation. What is clear is that they want BOTH institutional fit AND excellence in the basketball program. Despite all the early rumors of 12 and claims that Fox wanted 12, they stopped at 10. Apparently they didn't find more than 3 programs who met their criteria. The Georgetown was widely quoted, lobbying for Richmond but that didn't happen. So, yes we know that the presidents will make the decision but we also know that they're not necessarily all on the same page. It clearly isn"t a matter of being connected to someone who will go to bat for you. A program still needs to be sold and the group of presidents need to be convinced that a new member will advance the agenda that they are seeking for this new league.

On a final note, one thing that will change in the dynamics of the presidents' group will be the naming of a new president at St. John's.the Redmen are a cornerstone franchise in this league and their voice is very important. Their president was under fire when these decisions were being made last winter and spring. He couldn't have been a factor in the decision making. i wouldn't e at all surprised if the lack of leadership at St. John's was one of the factors that led them to decide to delay a Deion on going to 12. If there wasn't a clear consensus, all voices were very important. Lacking the one from St. John's may have led them to decide just to wait.