Which BEast programs NEED to succeed

[MUBoxer]

The only time anyone fights on this board is when friarfan2 is involved... I don't even know what his argument is... that GU, Villanova and St John's are the top teams historically... but he wants to leave out Marquette for some reason...?

He does this often? Is he like the guy I should just ignore on the board then?

[JOPO]

I say let the teams in the conference decide who is the best of the best. Everyone should play a strong OOC (SHU certainly needs help on that, our OOC this year is made up of games against various denominations of the Little Sisters of the Poor). The goal should be to emerge from the OOC undefeated ultimately but with no more than 1 loss. After that let the Big East members decide among themselves who is the best of the best!

[marquette]

Does anyone have any idea why posters are arguing over "brand recognition"?

You know, I keep asking myself this same question (yes I know I'm part of the problem). Fact of the matter is winning creates brand recognition, failing to perform hurts it. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin but just yesterday I saw a kid wearing a Florida Gulf Coast University shirt. You could not find a place more different from Fort Meyers than Milwaukee. I know this kid isn't a student there as the semester started this week most places and last week some places. My point is that it doesn't matter who wins, as long as several of our teas perform well in the non-conference and the NCAA.

Just as an aside that doesn't really matter . . .

There is no comparison between St. John's and DePaul historically. St. John's has been the far better program. Historically, you can't just look at NCAA finishes because there was a time when the NIT was just as important and then a time when it was still important although not as important. St. John's won 4 NIT's between 1943-65 while DePaul won one.

Another piece of historical trivia is that the Helms foundation named mythical national champions for a long time. They are generally used for the era before tournament play and polls. St. John's was named national champion by the Helms Foundation for 1913.

Again, none of this really matters, but with St. John's we're talking about a program whose success at the highest levels goes back a century with just the past decade being down as a program. The St. John's program has won about 300 more games in its history than DePaul, which is another way of demonstrating the relative success of the two programs over their histories.

Fair points, and I agree that DePaul is not the equal of St. John's. Just pointing out some interesting similarities between our two largest market teams. If we count Helms championships then Butler all of a sudden enters the equation. With 2 recent national runner-ups and 3 Helms titles Butler is pretty much the historical class of the league.


@Boxer
No, I don't have a Tom Crean altar anywhere in my apartment, so I must not be Chicos. I'm the annoying poster who's always trying to make FS1 seem like a juggernaut based on the niche fanbases of the UFC and NASCAR (what can I say, I see the world through blue and gold colored glasses). Please don't have too much of a 180 in your opinion of me.

[TheHall]

Does anyone have any idea why posters are arguing over "brand recognition"?

You know, I keep asking myself this same question (yes I know I'm part of the problem). Fact of the matter is winning creates brand recognition, failing to perform hurts it. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin but just yesterday I saw a kid wearing a Florida Gulf Coast University shirt. You could not find a place more different from Fort Meyers than Milwaukee. I know this kid isn't a student there as the semester started this week most places and last week some places. My point is that it doesn't matter who wins, as long as several of our teas perform well in the non-conference and the NCAA.


Another piece of historical trivia is that the Helms foundation named mythical national champions for a long time. They are generally used for the era before tournament play and polls. St. John's was named national champion by the Helms Foundation for 1913.

I agree winning helps but it seems to me that putting players in the league outweighs even winning in cbb today. Just look at the BE's current flagship program Gtown. JT3 has had too many spectacular flameouts to count since that Final4 run but Gtown has become a NBA launching pad so he & the program are rightly revered. Same thing (minus the 1st round flameouts) for marquette recently under Buzz. He's won a decent amount but he's made marquette a beast on the recruiting trail with his NBA talent development success. Example:

http://painttouches.com/2013/09/02/why-trent-lockett-is-nba-bound/

When a program starts having success putting players in the league it most times gives a boost to recruiting, which is the lifeblood of all programs. I actually think winning is more important for mid majors & below (your Florida Gulf Coast example or Loyola Marymount back in the day), but I think Harkless going in the lottery was more significant for the perception of SJU's program than winning a few more games that season.

Also, If the players wind up doing well in the league or over-performing like Jimmy Butler or Roy Hibbert it's a double bonus. But even if the school has a history of putting busts in the league there's still a measurable boost to the program's perception...Syracuse/Duke.

I think Fuquan Edwin will have a helluva senior year (1st Team All-BE) and will get a shot at making the league next year, which would definitely help the Hall's perception going forward.

[Bill Marsh]

Does anyone have any idea why posters are arguing over "brand recognition"?

You know, I keep asking myself this same question (yes I know I'm part of the problem). Fact of the matter is winning creates brand recognition, failing to perform hurts it. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin but just yesterday I saw a kid wearing a Florida Gulf Coast University shirt. You could not find a place more different from Fort Meyers than Milwaukee. I know this kid isn't a student there as the semester started this week most places and last week some places. My point is that it doesn't matter who wins, as long as several of our teas perform well in the non-conference and the NCAA.

Just as an aside that doesn't really matter . . .

There is no comparison between St. John's and DePaul historically. St. John's has been the far better program. Historically, you can't just look at NCAA finishes because there was a time when the NIT was just as important and then a time when it was still important although not as important. St. John's won 4 NIT's between 1943-65 while DePaul won one.

Another piece of historical trivia is that the Helms foundation named mythical national champions for a long time. They are generally used for the era before tournament play and polls. St. John's was named national champion by the Helms Foundation for 1913.

Again, none of this really matters, but with St. John's we're talking about a program whose success at the highest levels goes back a century with just the past decade being down as a program. The St. John's program has won about 300 more games in its history than DePaul, which is another way of demonstrating the relative success of the two programs over their histories.

Fair points, and I agree that DePaul is not the equal of St. John's. Just pointing out some interesting similarities between our two largest market teams. If we count Helms championships then Butler all of a sudden enters the equation. With 2 recent national runner-ups and 3 Helms titles Butler is pretty much the historical class of the league.


@Boxer
No, I don't have a Tom Crean altar anywhere in my apartment, so I must not be Chicos. I'm the annoying poster who's always trying to make FS1 seem like a juggernaut based on the niche fanbases of the UFC and NASCAR (what can I say, I see the world through blue and gold colored glasses). Please don't have too much of a 180 in your opinion of me.

What great points you make!

I especially like your point about FGCU. All of a sudden they are a household name. In a similar way, Gonzaga has been living of its run to the Elite 8 in 1999 ever since even though the coach who accomplished that is long gone and even though Gonzaga has never gotten that far in the tournament in the 14 years since. Is any basketball program in the country more "recognizable" than Gonzaga?

I get your point about DePaul and it's certainly valid. There are more similarities than differences between the two. Regardless of the number of NIT titles that St. John's had, they never had as big a star as George Mikan, who put DePaul on the map and whose reputation and dominance in the early years of the NBA kept them there for a long. As Insaid, my point about St. John's was just a note on historical trivia that doesn't really matter.

Great point about Butler. If anyone wants to claim that they have no history before the past decade, we can point to the 1920's. BTW, unless I'm missing something I don't think you meant that Butler has Helms Foundation titles. From what I read, they actually have claims for national titles that challenge the Helms Foundation picks. Did I miss something?

Thanks for your post. Great points! And you helped me learn some things.

[marquette]

I guess I misspoke. It is only 2 championships instead of 3, but according to their wikipedia page it was pre-tournament Helms Championships in 1924 and 1929.

[MUBoxer]

Does anyone have any idea why posters are arguing over "brand recognition"?

You know, I keep asking myself this same question (yes I know I'm part of the problem). Fact of the matter is winning creates brand recognition, failing to perform hurts it. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin but just yesterday I saw a kid wearing a Florida Gulf Coast University shirt. You could not find a place more different from Fort Meyers than Milwaukee. I know this kid isn't a student there as the semester started this week most places and last week some places. My point is that it doesn't matter who wins, as long as several of our teas perform well in the non-conference and the NCAA.

Just as an aside that doesn't really matter . . .

There is no comparison between St. John's and DePaul historically. St. John's has been the far better program. Historically, you can't just look at NCAA finishes because there was a time when the NIT was just as important and then a time when it was still important although not as important. St. John's won 4 NIT's between 1943-65 while DePaul won one.

Another piece of historical trivia is that the Helms foundation named mythical national champions for a long time. They are generally used for the era before tournament play and polls. St. John's was named national champion by the Helms Foundation for 1913.

Again, none of this really matters, but with St. John's we're talking about a program whose success at the highest levels goes back a century with just the past decade being down as a program. The St. John's program has won about 300 more games in its history than DePaul, which is another way of demonstrating the relative success of the two programs over their histories.

Fair points, and I agree that DePaul is not the equal of St. John's. Just pointing out some interesting similarities between our two largest market teams. If we count Helms championships then Butler all of a sudden enters the equation. With 2 recent national runner-ups and 3 Helms titles Butler is pretty much the historical class of the league.


@Boxer
No, I don't have a Tom Crean altar anywhere in my apartment, so I must not be Chicos. I'm the annoying poster who's always trying to make FS1 seem like a juggernaut based on the niche fanbases of the UFC and NASCAR (what can I say, I see the world through blue and gold colored glasses). Please don't have too much of a 180 in your opinion of me.

Haha are you striker then? And nope no 180 turn around in my book that I reserve for those with Crean alters in their apartment.

[Bill Marsh]

You know, I keep asking myself this same question (yes I know I'm part of the problem). Fact of the matter is winning creates brand recognition, failing to perform hurts it. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin but just yesterday I saw a kid wearing a Florida Gulf Coast University shirt. You could not find a place more different from Fort Meyers than Milwaukee. I know this kid isn't a student there as the semester started this week most places and last week some places. My point is that it doesn't matter who wins, as long as several of our teas perform well in the non-conference and the NCAA.


Another piece of historical trivia is that the Helms foundation named mythical national champions for a long time. They are generally used for the era before tournament play and polls. St. John's was named national champion by the Helms Foundation for 1913.

I agree winning helps but it seems to me that putting players in the league outweighs even winning in cbb today. Just look at the BE's current flagship program Gtown. JT3 has had too many spectacular flameouts to count since that Final4 run but Gtown has become a NBA launching pad so he & the program are rightly revered. Same thing (minus the 1st round flameouts) for marquette recently under Buzz. He's won a decent amount but he's made marquette a beast on the recruiting trail with his NBA talent development success. Example:

http://painttouches.com/2013/09/02/why-trent-lockett-is-nba-bound/

When a program starts having success putting players in the league it most times gives a boost to recruiting, which is the lifeblood of all programs. I actually think winning is more important for mid majors & below (your Florida Gulf Coast example or Loyola Marymount back in the day), but I think Harkless going in the lottery was more significant for the perception of SJU's program than winning a few more games that season.

Also, If the players wind up doing well in the league or over-performing like Jimmy Butler or Roy Hibbert it's a double bonus. But even if the school has a history of putting busts in the league there's still a measurable boost to the program's perception...Syracuse/Duke.

I think Fuquan Edwin will have a helluva senior year (1st Team All-BE) and will get a shot at making the league next year, which would definitely help the Hall's perception going forward.

I think you're really onto something here. Getting players who become big stars in the NBA is a huge boost for a program.

Georgetown is a classic case. Despite their dominance in the mid '80's, ultimately they won only a single championship. Hardly something that establishes them as a legendary program. But they produced a string of big men - Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo - and followed them with Allen Iverson, one of the most exciting "little men" the game has ever seen. Those four alone kept Georgetown in a position of prominence until JT III could revive the program more recently. Of course the aura of "Hoya Paranoia" that surrounded the program and the way that Thompson revolutionized the game with his approach to defense didn't hurt either.

Great coaches can also help to sell programs because they make for great TV. Al McGuire was certainly that kind of coach at Marquette. Gerry Tarkanian created a prominence for UNLV that went beyond anything they accomplished on the court. Coaches can be stars too and the original Big East had a group of coaches who were also interesting personalities, which certainly helped the leahue's TV appeal and star power.

[bman95]

Trolls who sit in a dark room and log on with name like friarfan2 , who never went to that school or perhaps any school. they enjoy the grief and nothing more. They move around and if have access to a forum will have much fun at everyone else's expense.

The will show up more as the season approaches, I'm sure, and I'm sure there will be bad blood anyway. But the good vibe of other fans having each other back could be a nice asset for a renegade league.

[Bill Marsh]

I guess I misspoke. It is only 2 championships instead of 3, but according to their wikipedia page it was pre-tournament Helms Championships in 1924 and 1929.

Actually North Carolina was the Helms Foundation title holder in 1924 and Montana State in 1929, but Butler won the AAU championship in 1924 and were awarded the McDevitt trophy in 1929 by Veteran Athletes of Philadelphia, recognizing Butler as national title holders that year. Obviously Butler challenges the Helms Foundation picks in both of those seasons