Which BEast programs NEED to succeed

[billyjack]

The only time anyone fights on this board is when friarfan2 is involved... I don't even know what his argument is... that GU, Villanova and St John's are the top teams historically... but he wants to leave out Marquette for some reason...?

[MUBoxer]

Fair point system:

CONFERENCE TITLE - 5 POINTS
For best win percentage in regular season regardless of division. Independents that finished ahead of two major conference champions in final AP poll received credit.
CONFERENCE TOURNAMENT TITLE - 3 POINTS
Independents that finished ahead of two major-conference champions in final AP poll received credit.
WIN PERCENTAGE
80 percent and above = 4 points, 60-79 percent = 2 points, 35.1-49.9 percent = minus-2 points, less than 35 percent = minus-4 points.
NO. 1 SEED - 2 POINTS
Started in 1979.
NCAA TOURNAMENT BERTH - 1 POINT
NCAA 1ST-RD. WIN AS 12-16-SEED - 1 POINT
Started in 1979 for 12-seeds only, 1985 for seeds 12-16.
LOSING IN SECOND ROUND - 3 POINTS
Started in 1985, every team had to win a game to advance to Round of 32.
SWEET 16 LOSS - 5 PTS
Started in 1975, every team had to win at least once to advance to Sweet 16.
ELITE EIGHT LOSS - 10 PTS
NATIONAL SEMIFINAL LOSS - 15 POINTS
TITLE GAME LOSS - 20 POINTS
NATIONAL TITLE - 25 POINTS
NIT TITLE - 1 POINT
FIRST-TEAM ALL-AMERICAN - 3 POINTS
SECOND-TEAM ALL-AMERICAN - 2 POINTS
PLAYER TAKEN IN NBA'S TOP 10 - 2 POINTS
Started in 1966, common draft.
VACATED SEASON - MINUS-2 POINTS
Any season where wins were vacated.
SANCTIONS
TV ban = minus-1 point, postseason ban = minus-2 points, probation = minus-1 point, loss of financial aid = minus-1 point, recruiting violation = minus-1 point, show-cause action = minus-2 points.

Marquette finishes with 326 points (after 51 years)
Villanova finishes with 317 points (after 51 seasons)

There's an objective way to measure old and new power and Friarfan I didn't come up with the point system it was taken from the 50 in 50 series and adjusted to add this year so it wouldn't look like I was trying to screw villanova out of their 62 sweet 16. If success is everything in terms of perception and every decade is weighted evenly (which neither of us were doing you too much on the 80s and me too much on the 2000s then there you go.) I starte to do SJU but then decided it wasn't remotely worth it.

[BillikensWin]

I think it's paramount that the Big East wins big in non-conference. 5 bids in 10 teams would be a successful year. Anything less than 4 would be a disaster without a national championship or FF appearance.


To quote a good friend...at least you guys have a conference.
I have very good friends who are hoping like hell Saint Louis gets kicked out of the A-10. That is not a typo.

[MUBoxer]

I think it's paramount that the Big East wins big in non-conference. 5 bids in 10 teams would be a successful year. Anything less than 4 would be a disaster without a national championship or FF appearance.


To quote a good friend...at least you guys have a conference.
I have very good friends who are hoping like hell Saint Louis gets kicked out of the A-10. That is not a typo.

Love slu and respect their tradition and recent surge but you guys might want to wait another year or two before hoping to get kicked out of the A10 I mean where else is there to go? If the recent surge continues you'll be here but like I said I wouldn't get to hoping to get kicked out yet.

[BillikensWin]

I think it's paramount that the Big East wins big in non-conference. 5 bids in 10 teams would be a successful year. Anything less than 4 would be a disaster without a national championship or FF appearance.


To quote a good friend...at least you guys have a conference.
I have very good friends who are hoping like hell Saint Louis gets kicked out of the A-10. That is not a typo.

Love slu and respect their tradition and recent surge but you guys might want to wait another year or two before hoping to get kicked out of the A10 I mean where else is there to go? If the recent surge continues you'll be here but like I said I wouldn't get to hoping to get kicked out yet.

Yeah, one of them posted on this site till recently. He said he'd rather see SLU drop the program than play in the A-10.

[marquette]

Why do you think Depaul isn't in this conversation? I history mattered so much they should be as Ray Meyer and his son took it to the same level as Anyone else in the 80s but because recent success does matter a lot more than stuff over 20 years ago they aren't.

This is actually a very interesting point. They are very similar schools in terms of size (25,000 for DePaul, 21,000 for St. John's), endowment (approximately $350 million), both are Vincentian, similar rankings (in US News both are tier 1 universities only 15 places apart), and both are in huge markets. Both have 2 final 4's ('43 and '79 for DePaul and '52 and '85 for St. John's), DePaul has more sweet 16's, but St. John's has more elite 8's. St. John's does have a national runner up, although it is from 1952. St. John's is definitely on the upswing, though.

Anyway, back to the original conversation (and not directed at you, Boxer). In my opinion we are all in great markets. Any team that does well will have plenty of coverage. The most important thing is that at least half of the conference does well enough to make it to the NCAA tourney and some elite 8's and final 4's would be nice as well. We do need to win a championship eventually, but that can wait a couple of years. We will all be on national television this year, that's some great exposure if we perform. Half the point of this league is that we are all in great markets, so anyone who performs will get coverage. I would tend toward Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, and St. John's as must-perform teams, but you can't tell me that if Xavier, Creighton, DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall, or Butler make a run to the Final 4 or the championship that won't be good for the league.

As an aside, it's good to see a quality poster such as yourself, MUboxer, getting involved on the board. I really enjoy your posts over on scoop.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Fair point system:

CONFERENCE TITLE - 5 POINTS
For best win percentage in regular season regardless of division. Independents that finished ahead of two major conference champions in final AP poll received credit.
CONFERENCE TOURNAMENT TITLE - 3 POINTS
Independents that finished ahead of two major-conference champions in final AP poll received credit.
WIN PERCENTAGE
80 percent and above = 4 points, 60-79 percent = 2 points, 35.1-49.9 percent = minus-2 points, less than 35 percent = minus-4 points.
NO. 1 SEED - 2 POINTS
Started in 1979.
NCAA TOURNAMENT BERTH - 1 POINT
NCAA 1ST-RD. WIN AS 12-16-SEED - 1 POINT
Started in 1979 for 12-seeds only, 1985 for seeds 12-16.
LOSING IN SECOND ROUND - 3 POINTS
Started in 1985, every team had to win a game to advance to Round of 32.
SWEET 16 LOSS - 5 PTS
Started in 1975, every team had to win at least once to advance to Sweet 16.
ELITE EIGHT LOSS - 10 PTS
NATIONAL SEMIFINAL LOSS - 15 POINTS
TITLE GAME LOSS - 20 POINTS
NATIONAL TITLE - 25 POINTS
NIT TITLE - 1 POINT
FIRST-TEAM ALL-AMERICAN - 3 POINTS
SECOND-TEAM ALL-AMERICAN - 2 POINTS
PLAYER TAKEN IN NBA'S TOP 10 - 2 POINTS
Started in 1966, common draft.
VACATED SEASON - MINUS-2 POINTS
Any season where wins were vacated.
SANCTIONS
TV ban = minus-1 point, postseason ban = minus-2 points, probation = minus-1 point, loss of financial aid = minus-1 point, recruiting violation = minus-1 point, show-cause action = minus-2 points.

Marquette finishes with 326 points (after 51 years)
Villanova finishes with 317 points (after 51 seasons)

There's an objective way to measure old and new power and Friarfan I didn't come up with the point system it was taken from the 50 in 50 series and adjusted to add this year so it wouldn't look like I was trying to screw villanova out of their 62 sweet 16. If success is everything in terms of perception and every decade is weighted evenly (which neither of us were doing you too much on the 80s and me too much on the 2000s then there you go.) I starte to do SJU but then decided it wasn't remotely worth it.

Well that settles it...LOL!!! An absolutely arbitrary collection of weighted #s chosen by some random stat geek. You win MUBoxer. You seem hell bent on choosing whatever random sample of #s to make your argument. I concede. Marquette is the bestest ever. Ever.

[MUBoxer]

I think it's paramount that the Big East wins big in non-conference. 5 bids in 10 teams would be a successful year. Anything less than 4 would be a disaster without a national championship or FF appearance.


To quote a good friend...at least you guys have a conference.
I have very good friends who are hoping like hell Saint Louis gets kicked out of the A-10. That is not a typo.

Love slu and respect their tradition and recent surge but you guys might want to wait another year or two before hoping to get kicked out of the A10 I mean where else is there to go? If the recent surge continues you'll be here but like I said I wouldn't get to hoping to get kicked out yet.

Yeah, one of them posted on this site till recently. He said he'd rather see SLU drop the program than play in the A-10.

Perhaps it was Biondi? I hear he isn't exactly a fan of athletic programs.

[MUBoxer]

Fair point system:

CONFERENCE TITLE - 5 POINTS
For best win percentage in regular season regardless of division. Independents that finished ahead of two major conference champions in final AP poll received credit.
CONFERENCE TOURNAMENT TITLE - 3 POINTS
Independents that finished ahead of two major-conference champions in final AP poll received credit.
WIN PERCENTAGE
80 percent and above = 4 points, 60-79 percent = 2 points, 35.1-49.9 percent = minus-2 points, less than 35 percent = minus-4 points.
NO. 1 SEED - 2 POINTS
Started in 1979.
NCAA TOURNAMENT BERTH - 1 POINT
NCAA 1ST-RD. WIN AS 12-16-SEED - 1 POINT
Started in 1979 for 12-seeds only, 1985 for seeds 12-16.
LOSING IN SECOND ROUND - 3 POINTS
Started in 1985, every team had to win a game to advance to Round of 32.
SWEET 16 LOSS - 5 PTS
Started in 1975, every team had to win at least once to advance to Sweet 16.
ELITE EIGHT LOSS - 10 PTS
NATIONAL SEMIFINAL LOSS - 15 POINTS
TITLE GAME LOSS - 20 POINTS
NATIONAL TITLE - 25 POINTS
NIT TITLE - 1 POINT
FIRST-TEAM ALL-AMERICAN - 3 POINTS
SECOND-TEAM ALL-AMERICAN - 2 POINTS
PLAYER TAKEN IN NBA'S TOP 10 - 2 POINTS
Started in 1966, common draft.
VACATED SEASON - MINUS-2 POINTS
Any season where wins were vacated.
SANCTIONS
TV ban = minus-1 point, postseason ban = minus-2 points, probation = minus-1 point, loss of financial aid = minus-1 point, recruiting violation = minus-1 point, show-cause action = minus-2 points.

Marquette finishes with 326 points (after 51 years)
Villanova finishes with 317 points (after 51 seasons)

There's an objective way to measure old and new power and Friarfan I didn't come up with the point system it was taken from the 50 in 50 series and adjusted to add this year so it wouldn't look like I was trying to screw villanova out of their 62 sweet 16. If success is everything in terms of perception and every decade is weighted evenly (which neither of us were doing you too much on the 80s and me too much on the 2000s then there you go.) I starte to do SJU but then decided it wasn't remotely worth it.

Well that settles it...LOL!!! An absolutely arbitrary collection of weighted #s chosen by some random stat geek. You win MUBoxer. You seem hell bent on choosing whatever random sample of #s to make your argument. I concede. Marquette is the bestest ever. Ever.

Yeah cause that's what I was going for... I was saying we were on the same level. If you truly think I was sitting here trying to say Marquette is the best ever then you are a complete fool. And I chose that point system because its objective and covers every base.

[MUBoxer]

Why do you think Depaul isn't in this conversation? I history mattered so much they should be as Ray Meyer and his son took it to the same level as Anyone else in the 80s but because recent success does matter a lot more than stuff over 20 years ago they aren't.

This is actually a very interesting point. They are very similar schools in terms of size (25,000 for DePaul, 21,000 for St. John's), endowment (approximately $350 million), both are Vincentian, similar rankings (in US News both are tier 1 universities only 15 places apart), and both are in huge markets. Both have 2 final 4's ('43 and '79 for DePaul and '52 and '85 for St. John's), DePaul has more sweet 16's, but St. John's has more elite 8's. St. John's does have a national runner up, although it is from 1952. St. John's is definitely on the upswing, though.

Anyway, back to the original conversation (and not directed at you, Boxer). In my opinion we are all in great markets. Any team that does well will have plenty of coverage. The most important thing is that at least half of the conference does well enough to make it to the NCAA tourney and some elite 8's and final 4's would be nice as well. We do need to win a championship eventually, but that can wait a couple of years. We will all be on national television this year, that's some great exposure if we perform. Half the point of this league is that we are all in great markets, so anyone who performs will get coverage. I would tend toward Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, and St. John's as must-perform teams, but you can't tell me that if Xavier, Creighton, DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall, or Butler make a run to the Final 4 or the championship that won't be good for the league.

As an aside, it's good to see a quality poster such as yourself, MUboxer, getting involved on the board. I really enjoy your posts over on scoop.

Thank you, Im not sure who you are on scoop but I'm sure you aren't Chicos or willie warrior thus I respect your opinion haha.