Which BEast programs NEED to succeed

[aughnanure]

I'd say the entire big east and maybe half the A10 are bigger names than Arkansas in terms of basketball!

Oh look, a Butler fan who's only paid attention to college basketball for six years.

Please. Loyola and LaSalle have won titles too. The razorbacks had a nice resurgence in the early 90's after being slightly above average for some time but have since fallen off. Sounds like a few big east schools if you ask me. Comparing them to the a10? Probably a little hyperbole but it speaks to the recent state of their program. In my opinion many recruits today would view them below big east schools and even some in the A10. Point being, someone says big time college bball today and very few would think of Arkansas.

Comparing Arkansas to Loyola and LaSalle makes you look even worse. Arkansas, before Donovan at least, was the #2 basketball school in the SEC. You obviously don't know how much that state does care about basketball or how they are viewed in the South and Plains. They've been good since the late 70s and were one of the only basketball schools in the old SWC. Arkansas has a better national brand that all but 2 or 3 Big East teams (maybe 4 but that's pushing it).

They are a great bball school an should be getting back up there with Mike Anderson leading now.

[Bulldog_Muskie]

I guess you and I have different definitions of national power, because to me you just described a team with at best a regional following as of late. For all the success they may have had, (outside of the title, plenty of teams of similar records) a majority of people right now would not include them in the conversation. Based on history is that fair? Maybe, maybe not. But a team that hasn't made it past the sweet sixteen since 1996 isn't exactly going to be at the forefront of the public consciousnesses.

Also don't confuse the above with me saying that butler is a national power (far from it) but in terms of recent performance I'd say they are at least on equal footing with Arkansas in terms of national recognition at present.

[MUBoxer]

I am not knocking Marquette. Villanova is a better brand right now. I don't know how any objective person can disagree.

Since 2000, they have both been very good. Nova had a 1 seed elite 8 team, a final four, a couple other sweet 16's and one of the most recognizable coaches in the nation. They had 2 first team all Americans with foye and Reynolds. Marquette has the most established player on wade, they also have a final four, they had another team make a run to the elite 8 and have also been in the sweet 16 other years. Both teams have been to the dance a bunch in the past decade.

Marquette missed the ncaa tournament from 1983-1993' a period where nova was a tourney regular, won a national championship, and had a couple other deep runs.
Marquette picked it up a bit in the 1990's, but they had suffered a recognition hit from their prior decade, while villanova continued to make the ncaa your meant and produced a decent number of nba players and, perhaps most importantly to the discussion, had many, many more nationally televised games than Marquette in this period. I'm not claiming villanova were world beaters in the 1990's, but they remained in the national spotlight as a quality team, while Marquette was trying to rebuild its image after a decade long post-al McGuire period of futility.

Villanova and Georgetown are definitely the league's two biggest name brands. I would put St. John's and Marquette on that next level. (I know, St. John's has stunk for a decade, but they were very solid up until 10 yrs ago and were among the top brand in the country before it all unravelled and they hired norm Roberts).

Success-wise Xavier should be there too, but they never received enough exposure to really take the leap (similar to Marquette during the 1990's and pre-big east).

No need to get offended. I am not insulting Marquette.

Wait you're talking about national perception right now and bringing up the 90s and 80s? I think you're doing that simply to be stubborn. And saying that a team with a final four elite 8 2 sweet 16s and 10 tournament appearances since the turn of the century is perceived the same as a team that has only been to the tournament 3 times and done jack since then (let alone doesn't even have a title) is insulting. You're on he east coast so you're biased towards Nova and I'm not arguing that MU is anything but on the same level as Nova as GTown perception wise but let's do this since 2000 (because you're talking about current perception) success is directly correlated to national perception so tell me who's on what level.

Team A:
11 tournament appearances, 5 sweet 16s, 2 E8s
Attendance per game: 10,155

Team B:
10 tournament appearances, 4 sweet 16s, 2 E8s, 1 Final Four
Attendance per game: 15,138

Team C:
8 Tournament appearances, 4 sweet 16s, 2 E8s, 1 Final Four
Attendance per game: 8,923

Team D:
8 Tournament Appearances, 3 sweet 16s, 1 E8s, 1 Final Four
Attendance per game: 11,283

Team E:
3 Tournament appearances
Attendance per game: 8,425

[Friarfan2]

Butler is great. I don't think anyone would say that the butler basketball brand, as a whole is on the level of Georgetown, villanova, St. John's or Marquette. Most people hadn't heard of butler 6 or 7 yrs ago.

Butlers championship game runs have been great for them and put them on the map. A map that schools like Georgetown, Marquette, villanova and St. John's have already long been residents.

I think saying butler is the biggest brand name in the conference, or even up there with the big 4 of nova, gtown, Marquette and St. John's, would be like saying George mason was a bigger brand than Georgetown in2006 because they had been to a more recent final four, or saying that VCU or Wichita state are bigger brand names than say Arkansas or St. John's. a brand takes a lot longer to build up than one or two recent runs.

I think you are on a bit of a tangent with your post.

So, St. John's hasn't been to a Final Four in almost 30 years. They haven't been to a championship game in more than 60 years, but they're a bigger name in the world of college basketball today than Butler? Wow!

Yes. St. John's is absolutely a bigger brand name basketball program than butler. Absolutely. Not even close.

[Friarfan2]

We are talking about brand recognition, and a team's exposure throughout history, especially throughout cable television history, is certainly relevant. We are not just talking about who has been the best team e past 10 yrs (where both villanova and Georgetown have an edge over Marquette), we are talking about who has the more visible programs.

Marquette took 10 yrs off (1983-1993), then started having some success, but from a lesser exposure conference, and had a nice run since 2000.
Villanova and Georgetown were national powers in the 80's, had continued high exposure in the 90's, and have had an equal run as Marquette since 2000. But they had a head start this past decade as they have greater recognition from the get go.

St. John's had a horrible last decade. But their 80's and 90's were very strong, they had a ton of exposure, they still have comparable brand recognition to marquette as a result.

Marquette is a school in Milwaukee that was a national power until 1983, but dipped off the national scene for twenty yrs, and just over the past ten years have re-entered the picture. It is what it is, and that is a lesser brand program than say villanova or Georgetown.

And to the person comparing Arkansas to the Atlantic 10, my god what planet do you live on? Arkansas has been to 25 of the past 36 ncaa tournaments with a half dozen final fours and a ring. And three of their final fours and ear championship yr were in the 1990's, so lets not compare them to la Salle here.

[Friarfan2]

Here is what you're not grasping, mu-boxer: I a, not saying that villanova and Georgetown have been better than Marquette since 2000. What I a, saying is that, brand-wise and perception-wise, Marquette was nowhere near villanova and Georgetown to start the millennium. Villanova, Marquette and Georgetown have all done sir part to be national powers since 2000, but in terms of brand recognition Georgetown and villanova had a huge head start in Marquette, and quite simply Marquette hasn't been that much better (if better at all) than the other two to either catch them or pass them. They each made a final four, they each had multiple trips to the second weekend of the tournament, and quite frankly villanova and Georgetown have the significantly more recognizable head coaches, no offense to buzzy's actual ability, but it is the truth.

Marquette has good brand recognition. Villanova and Georgetown absolutely have the best brand recognition in the conference, and it is not all that close.

And if we were just talking about sustained success, Xavier would be in the discussion. But we are not.

[dmac80]

And I think we can all agree, while the new BE has some great brands, it would be huge if 1 of them could actually win the NC in the next 5 years. Tourney invites, then sweet 16s, and elite 8 and finals 4s are a must if this conf is to be considered on par with the big boys. I'm not saying every year, but they've got to remain in the hunt. Hopefully at least 4-5 get invites year in and year out. Would love to see PC get back in, it's way over due. But Nova and G'town are the 2 biggest brand and neither has won a NC since the 80s, in fact, I don't believe a single BE school has won since the 80s...need to make it happen in the next few years here, or at the very least be in the discussion (final 4)...all it takes is 1 for a historical and national brand to re establish as a highly respected power, look at Louisville.

[billyjack]

And I think we can all agree, while the new BE has some great brands, it would be huge if 1 of them could actually win the NC in the next 5 years. Tourney invites, then sweet 16s, and elite 8 and finals 4s are a must if this conf is to be considered on par with the big boys. I'm not saying every year, but they've got to remain in the hunt. Hopefully at least 4-5 get invites year in and year out. Would love to see PC get back in, it's way over due. But Nova and G'town are the 2 biggest brand and neither has won a NC since the 80s, in fact, I don't believe a single BE school has won since the 80s...need to make it happen in the next few years here, or at the very least be in the discussion (final 4)...all it takes is 1 for a historical and national brand to re establish as a highly respected power, look at Louisville.

I agree... also, I'm shooting for the 10 of us getting 3 teams in the Final 4, like in '85... hopefully within 5 years.

[billyjack]

Arkansas was the class of the Southwest Conference back in the late 70's... they had future Bucks' star Sydney Moncrief, and later center Joe Kleine in the 80s (great free throw shooter-- part of trade along with Ed Pinckney that broke up the Celtics' 80s dynasty (Ainge traded I think?)) ... Houston had those great teams too... the rest of the Southwest didn't care at all about basketball... Texas really didn't care until Tom Penders arrived from URI...

[MUBoxer]

We are talking about brand recognition, and a team's exposure throughout history, especially throughout cable television history, is certainly relevant. We are not just talking about who has been the best team e past 10 yrs (where both villanova and Georgetown have an edge over Marquette), we are talking about who has the more visible programs.

Marquette took 10 yrs off (1983-1993), then started having some success, but from a lesser exposure conference, and had a nice run since 2000.
Villanova and Georgetown were national powers in the 80's, had continued high exposure in the 90's, and have had an equal run as Marquette since 2000. But they had a head start this past decade as they have greater recognition from the get go.

St. John's had a horrible last decade. But their 80's and 90's were very strong, they had a ton of exposure, they still have comparable brand recognition to marquette as a result.

Marquette is a school in Milwaukee that was a national power until 1983, but dipped off the national scene for twenty yrs, and just over the past ten years have re-entered the picture. It is what it is, and that is a lesser brand program than say villanova or Georgetown.
.

First I did not say past ten years I said since the turn of the century (Marquette has the edge over Georgetown and Villanova).

Next stop saying 10 years. It was 9, we were in the tournament in 83 we were in the tournament in 93 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92 that's 9 seasons.

You don't need to give me a history lesson on my almamater's basketball team I know it quite well. But here's what you're failing to grasp (and at this point I don't care if you continue to believe that GTown and Nova are above MU but MU is most certainly above SJU.) You are working from an entire history perspective but a neglecting that a HUGE portion of the college basketball fan base is high school and college kids themselves who were either kids or not alive during the years that SJU was actually good which is why I'm placing so much emphasis on recent success over historical. People choosing schools and in school know Marquette as a top basketball program synonymous with Dwayne wade a slew of other players and Doc Rivers they know Marquette as a team that they've seen on their march madness brackets. Kids choosing schools right now don't know about Lou Carnesecca's success they know SJU pops up every once and awhile but isn't anything elite. Why do you think Depaul isn't in this conversation? I history mattered so much they shoul be as Ray Meyer and his son took it to the same level as Anyone else in the 80s but because recent success does matter a lot more than stuff over 20 years ago they aren't. That's why Marquette is better bran recognition than SJU. Remember again you're on the east coast so to you Marquette is a regional school you barely hear of while to you Villanova or SJU would make headlines all the time but the same works in reverse here we would never hear of Nova or SJU stuff unless it was really big news.