Mustapha Heron a Johnny?

[Friarsfan94]

Wait a minute...so the SEC does 2 sets of all-conference teams-the coaches vote on one and then the AP votes on one too? That seems kind of ridiculous lol. And just for the sake of argument, why would you hold the AP to a higher opinion than that of the coaches of the teams in the conference?

It's really weird because it doesn't look like the AP votes for Big East players...

Regarding trusting the AP more, it's the same reason the Coach's Top 25 poll is always a week or two behind the AP Top 25. When a new team enters the rankings for example, the Coach's will usually be delayed by a week or two in getting that new team ranked. Tbh I think the coaches wait for the AP Top 25 poll to come out, and then reevaluate their own rankings the following week. That's because the coaches primarily focus on their team and I'd imagine base their All Team rankings on reputation/the one or two times they faced that player during the year. For the AP, however, I'd think they would look at stats when determining these rankings and would take a more scientific approach to it.

Basically, the AP is more accurate for the Top 25 rankings, and therefore I'd also trust them more for the player rankings.

While I understand that logic, I think its application ends there, at the top 25 polls. When dealing with individual players, I would trust nobody over the coaches who coach against these players in conference. They know exactly what players on their conference foe's teams are the best and what they excel at. They study game tape after game tape after game tape on each conference opponent. They know the opposing teams better than most of their own fans. That is why a. I love that the Big East Coaches are the only ones deciding all-conference teams and b. I didn't even know that was a practice in other conferences. Is this really how it's done in other conferences? I trust Jay Wright's opinion WAYYYYYY before I trust AP's in this regard.

[adoraz]

While I understand that logic, I think its application ends there, at the top 25 polls. When dealing with individual players, I would trust nobody over the coaches who coach against these players in conference. They know exactly what players on their conference foe's teams are the best and what they excel at. They study game tape after game tape after game tape on each conference opponent. They know the opposing teams better than most of their own fans. That is why a. I love that the Big East Coaches are the only ones deciding all-conference teams and b. I didn't even know that was a practice in other conferences. Is this really how it's done in other conferences? I trust Jay Wright's opinion WAYYYYYY before I trust AP's in this regard.

That's a fair point. I'd still think the AP would look at stats while the coaches probably wouldn't, and I'm a stats person. Maybe Heron had a much better second half of the season for example and improved as the season went on, and thus coaches focused more on Auburn's other players and didn't take note of how well Heron played during the final month or two (after playing him). That's based on absolutely nothing, but just an example of why I'd trust AP over coaches. Also, the SEC is more bloated with 14 teams rather than 10, so no round robin.

Anyways, if you search "all SEC teams Heron 2018", you'll find a lot of articles about how Heron was snubbed. Here's a preview:

Pearl, of course, was happy for his two players who were honored, but the Tigers' fourth-year coach also expressed disappointment with the omission of leading scorer Mustapha Heron on the first or second team, which consisted of 16 players from across the SEC.

Pearl didn't want to take anything away from the 16 players who were honored, but he -- as well as his players -- felt slighted by Heron's absence on the All-SEC teams. Heron led Auburn with 17.1 points per game in SEC play and was tied for second on the team in rebounding at 5.4 per game.

"What I was mostly disappointed about what I saw and noticed in the selection of the list is that we didn't see Mustapha's name on there," Brown said. "That was really my biggest disappointment of the list. I feel like he was snubbed the most in it."

Heron was sixth in the SEC in scoring in league play, ahead of 11 of the coaches' All-SEC selections, and he tied for 20th in the league in rebounding, ahead of nine of the 16 All-SEC selections. Of course, Heron was also the leading scorer on the league's No. 1 team, which many feel is deserving of some sort of recognition.

Brown said Heron's omission, which left the impression that the sophomore guard isn't among the best 16 players in the SEC, "doesn't make any sense," but that it merely adds "fuel to the fire" for Heron heading into this week's SEC Tournament in St. Louis, where the Tigers are the No. 1 seed and will have a double-bye before playing the winner of Alabama and Texas A&M on Friday at noon.

[Friarsfan94]

While I understand that logic, I think its application ends there, at the top 25 polls. When dealing with individual players, I would trust nobody over the coaches who coach against these players in conference. They know exactly what players on their conference foe's teams are the best and what they excel at. They study game tape after game tape after game tape on each conference opponent. They know the opposing teams better than most of their own fans. That is why a. I love that the Big East Coaches are the only ones deciding all-conference teams and b. I didn't even know that was a practice in other conferences. Is this really how it's done in other conferences? I trust Jay Wright's opinion WAYYYYYY before I trust AP's in this regard.

That's a fair point. I'd still think the AP would look at stats while the coaches probably wouldn't, and I'm a stats person. Maybe Heron had a much better second half of the season for example and improved as the season went on, and thus coaches focused more on Auburn's other players and didn't take note of how well Heron played during the final month or two (after playing him). That's based on absolutely nothing, but just an example of why I'd trust AP over coaches. Also, the SEC is more bloated with 14 teams rather than 10, so no round robin.

Anyways, if you search "all SEC teams Heron 2018", you'll find a lot of articles about how Heron was snubbed. Here's a preview:

Pearl, of course, was happy for his two players who were honored, but the Tigers' fourth-year coach also expressed disappointment with the omission of leading scorer Mustapha Heron on the first or second team, which consisted of 16 players from across the SEC.

Pearl didn't want to take anything away from the 16 players who were honored, but he -- as well as his players -- felt slighted by Heron's absence on the All-SEC teams. Heron led Auburn with 17.1 points per game in SEC play and was tied for second on the team in rebounding at 5.4 per game.

"What I was mostly disappointed about what I saw and noticed in the selection of the list is that we didn't see Mustapha's name on there," Brown said. "That was really my biggest disappointment of the list. I feel like he was snubbed the most in it."

Heron was sixth in the SEC in scoring in league play, ahead of 11 of the coaches' All-SEC selections, and he tied for 20th in the league in rebounding, ahead of nine of the 16 All-SEC selections. Of course, Heron was also the leading scorer on the league's No. 1 team, which many feel is deserving of some sort of recognition.

Brown said Heron's omission, which left the impression that the sophomore guard isn't among the best 16 players in the SEC, "doesn't make any sense," but that it merely adds "fuel to the fire" for Heron heading into this week's SEC Tournament in St. Louis, where the Tigers are the No. 1 seed and will have a double-bye before playing the winner of Alabama and Texas A&M on Friday at noon.

Oh trust me, everything I'm debating does not take away from the fact that it's very surprising he was not at least on the second team. I've already stated he would be a welcome addition and critical piece on any and every team in the country...but he's just that, a PIECE. He isn't going to step into the Big East, which I think we can all agree is better than the SEC, except Stever, and DOMINATE as if the rest of the league is JV. Because he was a 5 Star, Mayhem has already fallen into the "5 STAR JUSTIN SIMON" trap again. Very different situations, I know, as Heron truly seems like he's not running away from something but has a legit reason for playing at a new school closer to home. I can already see it, Mayhem was calling Shamorie Ponds and Marcus Lovett the best backcourt in the country preseason last year...What the hell does that make Ponds and Heron then? The best backcourt in history? Lmao...and Mayhem, I'm just busting your balls, please don't take it personally, your enthusiasm is incredible, just seems misguided sometimes.

[stever20]

Big East was better than SEC last year- but it was closer than you think. 2-4 in RPI and 3-4 in KP... But if Heron was eligible, he'd not be walking into last years Big East, but rather a conference that is somewhat at a lower point than we've seen probably since realignment. So it's possible that while he might not dominate the league- he could easily be an all league performer right off the bat.

[adoraz]

While I understand that logic, I think its application ends there, at the top 25 polls. When dealing with individual players, I would trust nobody over the coaches who coach against these players in conference. They know exactly what players on their conference foe's teams are the best and what they excel at. They study game tape after game tape after game tape on each conference opponent. They know the opposing teams better than most of their own fans. That is why a. I love that the Big East Coaches are the only ones deciding all-conference teams and b. I didn't even know that was a practice in other conferences. Is this really how it's done in other conferences? I trust Jay Wright's opinion WAYYYYYY before I trust AP's in this regard.

That's a fair point. I'd still think the AP would look at stats while the coaches probably wouldn't, and I'm a stats person. Maybe Heron had a much better second half of the season for example and improved as the season went on, and thus coaches focused more on Auburn's other players and didn't take note of how well Heron played during the final month or two (after playing him). That's based on absolutely nothing, but just an example of why I'd trust AP over coaches. Also, the SEC is more bloated with 14 teams rather than 10, so no round robin.

Anyways, if you search "all SEC teams Heron 2018", you'll find a lot of articles about how Heron was snubbed. Here's a preview:

Pearl, of course, was happy for his two players who were honored, but the Tigers' fourth-year coach also expressed disappointment with the omission of leading scorer Mustapha Heron on the first or second team, which consisted of 16 players from across the SEC.

Pearl didn't want to take anything away from the 16 players who were honored, but he -- as well as his players -- felt slighted by Heron's absence on the All-SEC teams. Heron led Auburn with 17.1 points per game in SEC play and was tied for second on the team in rebounding at 5.4 per game.

"What I was mostly disappointed about what I saw and noticed in the selection of the list is that we didn't see Mustapha's name on there," Brown said. "That was really my biggest disappointment of the list. I feel like he was snubbed the most in it."

Heron was sixth in the SEC in scoring in league play, ahead of 11 of the coaches' All-SEC selections, and he tied for 20th in the league in rebounding, ahead of nine of the 16 All-SEC selections. Of course, Heron was also the leading scorer on the league's No. 1 team, which many feel is deserving of some sort of recognition.

Brown said Heron's omission, which left the impression that the sophomore guard isn't among the best 16 players in the SEC, "doesn't make any sense," but that it merely adds "fuel to the fire" for Heron heading into this week's SEC Tournament in St. Louis, where the Tigers are the No. 1 seed and will have a double-bye before playing the winner of Alabama and Texas A&M on Friday at noon.

Oh trust me, everything I'm debating does not take away from the fact that it's very surprising he was not at least on the second team. I've already stated he would be a welcome addition and critical piece on any and every team in the country...but he's just that, a PIECE. He isn't going to step into the Big East, which I think we can all agree is better than the SEC, except Stever, and DOMINATE as if the rest of the league is JV. Because he was a 5 Star, Mayhem has already fallen into the "5 STAR JUSTIN SIMON" trap again. Very different situations, I know, as Heron truly seems like he's not running away from something but has a legit reason for playing at a new school closer to home. I can already see it, Mayhem was calling Shamorie Ponds and Marcus Lovett the best backcourt in the country preseason last year...What the hell does that make Ponds and Heron then? The best backcourt in history? Lmao...and Mayhem, I'm just busting your balls, please don't take it personally, your enthusiasm is incredible, just seems misguided sometimes.

The SEC does have a lot more one and done caliber players than the Big East, though. And last year they were a very good conference for once. So, considering all but one or two of the SEC players above him are going to the draft, I think this is the biggest possible addition you can get. I'd put him above getting a 5 star recruit right out of high school, because Heron is a 5 star who's already proven. I think this is very different from Simon (as you said), because Simon was a 5 star transfer who wasn't proven yet. Simply put, I think Heron would be the biggest 2018/19 addition to the Big East, if eligible.

I agree 100% about MM over hyping SJU. I agree hyping up Ponds and LoVett as the best back court in the nation wasn't accurate. LoVett and Ponds weren't All Big East players after the 2016-17 season (just on the Freshman team). BUT, tbh, if you have the best returning BE player and the second/third best returning SEC player as your back court.... That's just.... Wow. This could truly be something special.

I'm not for over hyping, but if Heron is eligible next year... I'd expect the team to be Top 25 at some point.

[Savannah Jay]

A CU recruiting guy tweeted that a website called "valueaddbasketball" runs metrics on returning players and ranks those units compared to others in the conference. Those metrics, for what they are worth, had SJU with the second best projected starting 5 and third best top 8 rotation players (swapping spots with MU, which was 3rd and 2nd). Villanova was first, but those rankings included Spellman and Donte. I assume the person who runs the site will update now that the declaration date has passed.

I would post a link but I can't find the specific rankings that I've read...so I apologize for baiting without better reference.

Unfortunately, the site had my Bluejays has the 9th best starting 5 in the conference and 5th or 6th best 8 man rotation.

[Bill Marsh]

Let’s not create false expectations for St John’s - with or without Heron. They still have to replace more than 40% of their minutes, which leaves them with a lot of questions going into the season.

Will Sedee Keita be the answer to replacing Tariq Owens at center? He better be because they also lost all of their depth behind Owens with the departures of Alebegovic and Yakwe. Heron is a guard even in the unlikely event that he is eligible and if it’s At St John’s, so he won’t help with the lack of size going into next year.

Bashir Ahmed’s experience and clutch play is going to be tough to replace with any newcomer. He was a big contributor to their success the last couple of years.

First of all, don't mention "depth" and the Johnnies in the same breath. They didn't have any type of luxury. Alibigovic and Yakwe was cemented to the bench for most of the year. Alibigovic received some burn during the very, latter stages of the season. He was active and played decent defense, but he and Yakwe will be easily replaced.

Alibigovic and Yakwe combined for 19 minutes per game. Yakwe in particular is a talented kid. I don’t know what the issues were last year, but if they can be corrected, he has a lot of potential to help a team. But it won’t be St John’s next year.

If the two of them are so easily replaced, whose the replacement for their minutes next year? With the exception of Keita, St John’s has no size next year that I know of.

Owens's energy, experience and ability to block shots will be missed, but he was also easily pushed around and was a poor rebounder. I feel Keita will bring the same energy (minus the shot blocking), size, along with being a steady rebounder. I'm not sure about Keita's post game, but it can't be worst than Owens'. The latter had no post game whatsoever. Zilch.

Every player has limitations. But strengths matter. It wasn’t just the blocked shots. He was the team’s best offensive rebounder and #2 rebounder overall. His FT shooting was good for a big man, and I was impressed with his ability to hit clutch FTs.

You are too focused on what’s behind him. His minutes took a big jump each year and his play improved correspondingly. He had quite a few big games last year - especially in wins over Duke, Villanova, and Georgetown. Yes, he disappeared at times, but the challenge for him moving forward was to have the good games more consistently. College kids improve from year to year, and I’m betting that he will too. But now it won’t be with St John’s.

The issue isn’t whether Keita can be as good or better, the issue is that Keita will now be doing it alone. Imagine if they were both there to share the minutes. So even with Keita aboard, the team will still need to find another big man for the rotation. Keita will not be playing 40 mpg. Nor will Clark at the 4.

I like Bashir Ahmed, and think he could be initially missed, but he was also a bit too "hit and miss." He would occasionally disappear during the season. I do think his shot selection was slightly better this past season than the previous one (when he was a complete black hole), but he still would periodically fall back into the style of play during his junior season.

Okay. I think they have a better shot at replacing him with incoming talent. But until someone actually succeeds as his replacement, it reains one of those open questions especially on defense.

I feel confident in saying LJ Figueroa will sufficiently replace Ahmed. Figueroa was a D-1 JUCO 1st team All-American (the only freshman selected on the first team) this past season. Shot the ball well in his only season in the JUCO ranks. He seems to have a cerebral style to the way he goes about his business on the floor (I viewed a couple of his JUCO games). He could potentially take a few games before he gets his feet under him. I think he'll make the transition before long and will soundly replace Ahmed.

The Johnnies are short on big men (no pun intended, lol), but they're loaded with guards and swingmen. If they land Mustapha Heron AND he receives a waiver where he's immediately eligible, then you're talking about an extremely solid backcourt to an elite backcourt. If the Johnnies' big men defend, rebound, and occasionally look to and score, then this could be a team to be reckon with next season.

I get your point about Figueroa. Definitely a good “get” for the Johnnies. Keep in mind that they’re losing a couple of inches going from the 6-7 Ahmed to the 6-5 Figueroa. And they’re losing a couple more going from 6-11 Owens to 6-9 Keita. And Clark is already an undersized PF. And Ponds gives them one guard who is especially small. Undersized teams can score, but lack of size can hurt on D.

You said, “If the Johnnies’ big men defend . . .” There’s the rub. Using the plural. After Keita there are no big men (plural) unless I’m missing someone.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that St John’s won’t be improved, or that they won’t got to the tournament, or that they won’t contend for the BE title. I’m just saying that there are a lot of questions to be answered before we can have any assurance of that. It’s nowhere near as automatic as some of the posts here are implying.

[NJRedman]

Let’s not create false expectations for St John’s - with or without Heron. They still have to replace more than 40% of their minutes, which leaves them with a lot of questions going into the season.

Will Sedee Keita be the answer to replacing Tariq Owens at center? He better be because they also lost all of their depth behind Owens with the departures of Alebegovic and Yakwe. Heron is a guard even in the unlikely event that he is eligible and if it’s At St John’s, so he won’t help with the lack of size going into next year.

Bashir Ahmed’s experience and clutch play is going to be tough to replace with any newcomer. He was a big contributor to their success the last couple of years.

First of all, don't mention "depth" and the Johnnies in the same breath. They didn't have any type of luxury. Alibigovic and Yakwe was cemented to the bench for most of the year. Alibigovic received some burn during the very, latter stages of the season. He was active and played decent defense, but he and Yakwe will be easily replaced.

Alibigovic and Yakwe combined for 19 minutes per game. Yakwe in particular is a talented kid. I don’t know what the issues were last year, but if they can be corrected, he has a lot of potential to help a team. But it won’t be St John’s next year.

If the two of them are so easily replaced, whose the replacement for their minutes next year? With the exception of Keita, St John’s has no size next year that I know of.

Owens's energy, experience and ability to block shots will be missed, but he was also easily pushed around and was a poor rebounder. I feel Keita will bring the same energy (minus the shot blocking), size, along with being a steady rebounder. I'm not sure about Keita's post game, but it can't be worst than Owens'. The latter had no post game whatsoever. Zilch.

Every player has limitations. But strengths matter. It wasn’t just the blocked shots. He was the team’s best offensive rebounder and #2 rebounder overall. His FT shooting was good for a big man, and I was impressed with his ability to hit clutch FTs.

You are too focused on what’s behind him. His minutes took a big jump each year and his play improved correspondingly. He had quite a few big games last year - especially in wins over Duke, Villanova, and Georgetown. Yes, he disappeared at times, but the challenge for him moving forward was to have the good games more consistently. College kids improve from year to year, and I’m betting that he will too. But now it won’t be with St John’s.

The issue isn’t whether Keita can be as good or better, the issue is that Keita will now be doing it alone. Imagine if they were both there to share the minutes. So even with Keita aboard, the team will still need to find another big man for the rotation. Keita will not be playing 40 mpg. Nor will Clark at the 4.

I like Bashir Ahmed, and think he could be initially missed, but he was also a bit too "hit and miss." He would occasionally disappear during the season. I do think his shot selection was slightly better this past season than the previous one (when he was a complete black hole), but he still would periodically fall back into the style of play during his junior season.

Okay. I think they have a better shot at replacing him with incoming talent. But until someone actually succeeds as his replacement, it reains one of those open questions especially on defense.

I feel confident in saying LJ Figueroa will sufficiently replace Ahmed. Figueroa was a D-1 JUCO 1st team All-American (the only freshman selected on the first team) this past season. Shot the ball well in his only season in the JUCO ranks. He seems to have a cerebral style to the way he goes about his business on the floor (I viewed a couple of his JUCO games). He could potentially take a few games before he gets his feet under him. I think he'll make the transition before long and will soundly replace Ahmed.

The Johnnies are short on big men (no pun intended, lol), but they're loaded with guards and swingmen. If they land Mustapha Heron AND he receives a waiver where he's immediately eligible, then you're talking about an extremely solid backcourt to an elite backcourt. If the Johnnies' big men defend, rebound, and occasionally look to and score, then this could be a team to be reckon with next season.

I get your point about Figueroa. Definitely a good “get” for the Johnnies. Keep in mind that they’re losing a couple of inches going from the 6-7 Ahmed to the 6-5 Figueroa. And they’re losing a couple more going from 6-11 Owens to 6-9 Keita. And Clark is already an undersized PF. And Ponds gives them one guard who is especially small. Undersized teams can score, but lack of size can hurt on D.

You said, “If the Johnnies’ big men defend . . .” There’s the rub. Using the plural. After Keita there are no big men (plural) unless I’m missing someone.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that St John’s won’t be improved, or that they won’t got to the tournament, or that they won’t contend for the BE title. I’m just saying that there are a lot of questions to be answered before we can have any assurance of that. It’s nowhere near as automatic as some of the posts here are implying.

Owens was the best offensive rebounder on a terrible offensive rebounding team. Thats not saying much. The fact he wasn't clearly the #1 overall rebounder says all you need to know on his rebounding abilities and what we are replacing.

[NJRedman]

It's official! Heron is a Johnny! Woohoo!

[MullinMayhem]

Surprised that fans of other BE teams aren't excited for us...after being bottom-dwellers we still gave a little bit to the conference with the Duke win. Many have said we need SJ and G"Town to get back to prominence to take our conference to the next level...well, that's what an instantly-eligible Heron can do. We were ranked 15th in the country in 2015 with a less talented team. No reason we can't be in the top 25 with our weak OOC and a weak conference year. I'm not sold he will get the waiver...those never seem to go our way, but who knows? If we can get him the waiver and then also add Mike Rice for next season, you could easily look to the Johnnies as potential conference champs. Would be best roster in conference overall bar none.