The Athletic: Comparing Generations of Big East BBall ($)

[Bill Marsh]

You’re going to get pretty polarizing opinions on this matter depending on which fan base you ask. I think that’s the only real takeaway from all of this.

Agree.

Though I will say that over a 30 year period it had 7 NC’s: G’town, Nova, Cuse, UConn (3), L’ville. Contrast that with the B1G10’s current drought. In addition to these schools PC, WVU, SJU & SHU all made FF appearances. 9 different schools with a FF is pretty damn impressive. 16 or 17 total over 30 years is ridiculous. We’ve had 1 in our first 4 seasons.

I think the biggest difference is simply the # of schools in the conference. So many teams in that old conference. So more opportunities for someone to make a run when there are 7-11 teams in the tourney every year. It’s sort of like the ACC is now. Success born through volume of opportunity.

How about 7 of 9 teams getting to the tournament one year when the tournament had a smaller field?

[billyjack]

What a lot of people forget is how poorly the Big East performed when measuring Final Four appearances in the 1990s compared to the 1980s:

1980s:
1982 - Gtown
1984 - Gtown (Natl Champs)
1985 - Gtown, SJU, Nova (Natl Champs)
1987 - Providence, Syracuse
1989 - Seton Hall

1990s:
1996 - Syracuse
1999 - UConn (Natl Champs)

If you were to pull it back one round and look at Elite-8's, i think the 90's would still look solid. Off the top of my head, i can remember E-8's from SJU in 92-ish, Seton Hall early 90's, Georgetown with Iverson, PC with God in 97, Boston College with Curley in maybe 94. UConn in 90. Always a good variety of teams, not the 2 trick pony of the ACC.

In the 90's you had the bullsh-t artist Calipari stealing Big East recruits at UMass. Camby was from Hartford, and would've been in the Big East if not for Calipari.

You also had Massimino and Louie moving on, causing a transition period for VU and SJU. Carlesimo left early too, for the NBA. So 3 top programs lost long-time coaches (which makes me think the ACC could struggle once those old coaches leave.

1993, which was referred to in the article... we got 3 bids... but Syracuse was banned that year, and Providence got completely hosed on a bid, what a joke. So in reality, if you look at the specific circumstances, it should have been a 5 bid year in 93.

[DudeAnon]

I understand the article is behind a paywall so most can't read it. But it is written by Ken Pomeroy and only uses a statistical analysis. The OBE was average. Take a look.

[Bill Marsh]

What a lot of people forget is how poorly the Big East performed when measuring Final Four appearances in the 1990s compared to the 1980s:

1980s:
1982 - Gtown
1984 - Gtown (Natl Champs)
1985 - Gtown, SJU, Nova (Natl Champs)
1987 - Providence, Syracuse
1989 - Seton Hall

1990s:
1996 - Syracuse
1999 - UConn (Natl Champs)

I wouldn’t use words “poorly performed” with regard to the Big East in the ‘90’s. A one & done tournament is always a crap shoot. If they weren’t competitive, I’d agree with you but look at how many E8’s they compiled in that decade and look at how many of those were close losses. UConn in 1990, BC in 1994, PC in 1997, St John’s in 1999 as examples.

[Bill Marsh]

What a lot of people forget is how poorly the Big East performed when measuring Final Four appearances in the 1990s compared to the 1980s:

1980s:
1982 - Gtown
1984 - Gtown (Natl Champs)
1985 - Gtown, SJU, Nova (Natl Champs)
1987 - Providence, Syracuse
1989 - Seton Hall

1990s:
1996 - Syracuse
1999 - UConn (Natl Champs)

If you were to pull it back one round and look at Elite-8's, i think the 90's would still look solid. Off the top of my head, i can remember E-8's from SJU in 92-ish, Seton Hall early 90's, Georgetown with Iverson, PC with God in 97, Boston College with Curley in maybe 94. UConn in 90. Always a good variety of teams, not the 2 trick pony of the ACC.

In the 90's you had the bullsh-t artist Calipari stealing Big East recruits at UMass. Camby was from Hartford, and would've been in the Big East if not for Calipari.

You also had Massimino and Louie moving on, causing a transition period for VU and SJU. Carlesimo left early too, for the NBA. So 3 top programs lost long-time coaches (which makes me think the ACC could struggle once those old coaches leave.

1993, which was referred to in the article... we got 3 bids... but Syracuse was banned that year, and Providence got completely hosed on a bid, what a joke. So in reality, if you look at the specific circumstances, it should have been a 5 bid year in 93.

BIG EAST ELITE 8’s - 1990’s

1990 - UConn lost to Duke by 1 on a last second Christian Laettner dagger.
1991 - St John’s lost to NC Duke.
1991 - Seton Hall lost to defending NC UNLV.
1994 - BC lost to Florida in a war.
1995 - UConn lost to NC UCLA in as good a game as 2 teams have played on the same floor.
1996 - Syracuse beat Kansas by 3.
1996 - Georgetown lost to UMass.
1997 - Providence lost a heartbreaker in OT to NC Arizona.
1998 - UConn lost to North Carolina.
1999 - St John’s lost a nailbiter to Ohio State by 3.
1999 - UConn won the national championship in a classic over Duke.

[Hoya33]

The original Big East was an amazing conference. Over the last thirty years, maybe you could argue the ACC was a better conference (I would not), but what other conference was better? Such amazing coaches, players, and personality.

Are Creighton and Xavier the only current members of the Big East never to make it to a Final Four?

[anXUfan]

I believe X holds the dubious distinction of having the most tournament wins without a final four.

[GumbyDamnit!]

I understand the article is behind a paywall so most can't read it. But it is written by Ken Pomeroy and only uses a statistical analysis. The OBE was average. Take a look.

Not sure how this chart somehow equates to the BE being "average." In the KP Top three 16 out of 38 years. Avg. KP rank over 38 years = 3.8. How is that average? There is clearly an 8 year period in the late 90's, early 2000's where they took a step back. But much like the debate we always see on here, what are we judging a conference on? Is it overall RPI or KenPom? Success in March? Take 1999 as an example. 5th in KP, yet 2 E8 teams and a NC. Surely you can't argue that was an "average" season for the BE. In '85 the BE put 3 teams in the FF yet according to your chart they were the 4th best conference. That was a crowning moment for the conference in the NCAA history books, not some KP afterthought as the 4th best performance by a conference.

Look this debate isn't some sort of slight to the new members. I couldn't be happier trading in UC for X, USF for Creighton or Rutgers for Butler. I think everyone is happy with where we are now. But to look for reasons to discredit what was a great, great BB conference makes little sense to me. Using KP as a measure we were somewhere in the middle of the Top / Power 6 conferences nationwide. Using March as a measuring stick, I'd be surprised if we didn't trail only the ACC in overall tournament success over that time period. Again, no where near average.

[EMT]

I understand the article is behind a paywall so most can't read it. But it is written by Ken Pomeroy and only uses a statistical analysis. The OBE was average. Take a look.

Not sure how this chart somehow equates to the BE being "average." In the KP Top three 16 out of 38 years. Avg. KP rank over 38 years = 3.8. How is that average? There is clearly an 8 year period in the late 90's, early 2000's where they took a step back. But much like the debate we always see on here, what are we judging a conference on? Is it overall RPI or KenPom? Success in March? Take 1999 as an example. 5th in KP, yet 2 E8 teams and a NC. Surely you can't argue that was an "average" season for the BE. In '85 the BE put 3 teams in the FF yet according to your chart they were the 4th best conference. That was a crowning moment for the conference in the NCAA history books, not some KP afterthought as the 4th best performance by a conference.

Look this debate isn't some sort of slight to the new members. I couldn't be happier trading in UC for X, USF for Creighton or Rutgers for Butler. I think everyone is happy with where we are now. But to look for reasons to discredit what was a great, great BB conference makes little sense to me. Using KP as a measure we were somewhere in the middle of the Top / Power 6 conferences nationwide. Using March as a measuring stick, I'd be surprised if we didn't trail only the ACC in overall tournament success over that time period. Again, no where near average.

Let's say in another way.... average to bad old BE teams in certain years like Providence/Seton Hall/SJU would still have been competing for conference titles in the A-10 every year.

[DudeAnon]

The point is that the BE was an average high-major conference. It had great years and it had bad years, but it was not this monolithic entity the media treats it as.