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Good coaches? Or okay coaches who were in a good situation.

I view Marquette as one of those coaching situations where an average coach can be viewed as very good. Such strong institutional support. And when Crean took over the c-usa was a solid platform and the big east invite only made it better. I did think Crean was solid though. I never thought much of buzz Williams, thought he was a clown who lucked into a great job.

Some jobs are easier to succeed at. I don't think xavier simply hires geniuses every time, I think it's a good job. Same with villanova, as Steve lappas had three top ten teams in his nine years on the main line. How come butker' guys always seem to work out? Craig Esherick made a sweet 16. Is kevin Ollie a phenom, or did he take over something great? WHen is the last time Ohio state has had a bad coach?

Other jobs, on the other hand, are just dead ends. I always thought you could put dean smith at rutgers and he would have been fired in five years, never to find a legitimate job again. Coaches don't leave Boston college, they get fired.

And then there are some on the fence jobs. Ed Cooley versus Tim welsh. Tommy amaker or Louis Orr versus Bobby gonzalez or kevin Williard. I have always considered st John's one of the most attractive jobs in the nation, but a decade and a half of mediocre to poor teams makes one wonder. Schools like Illinois, or Iowa, or George Washington, or Mississippi state, they can go either way. Makes you think a guy like Archie miller at dayton actually might be a real program builder. Ben Howland at ucla was under appreciated.

The 2017 class on the state of Indiana is loaded. There's probably a half dozen NBA players in the class. Given that everyone and their mom believes he will or is actively trying to get Tom Crean fired, that's going to deliver Butler another class -- possibly better than the one that Rivals ranked #20 in 2016.

Crean and Buzz were both good at different things, neither of which seem to have prepared them for their current jobs. Both were good recruiters. A fair amount of Buzz's early talent was leftover from Crean, but you have to remember Buzz was on the recruiting staff that got them there.

Buzz was a great motivator who could get people to run through a wall for him. That was great provided the talent and fundamental groundwork were already there. If you already have a great shot technique, then someone motivating you to take 1,000 shots a day can only improve on that. If you are already an athletic freak, then someone motivating you to run your ass off and lift until you can't will be an amazing asset. Where Buzz seems to have been flawed is his inability to develop skills in fringe top 100 players and his play calling was lacking. He was also weird as all hell.

Crean, on the other hand, was great at getting people excited. A lot of what he did seems pretty corny in retrospect (for example, riding around the Al McGuire Center on an ATV in a karate gi) but definitely got the team and fans fired up. He embraced new technology and was one of the motivators behind the basketball practice facility (the Al). He also recruited some of the best talent in the history of Marquette (Dwyane Wade, Steve Novak, Travis Diener, etc). He was and is a terrible in-game coach. He is also a bizzare individual (for example, the constant fake tan, the fact that he gave all the awards at his basketball camp to his son, his in-game and post-game antics).

Overall, both had their strengths and weaknesses. They were good fits for Marquette when they came, but probably needed to leave when they did.

As far as institutional support, MU is generally in the top 15 in terms of basketball budget. Since the mid-90s, when we re-committed to basketball, we have been a fairly consistent program. We have some of the best facilities in the country, as far as training (the Al) and playing (the BC is bad by NBA standards, but pretty good by NCAA standards). We also have a sports science program to enhance athletic performance that is supposed to grow by something like ten times once the new sports science facility is completed. I think we are a place that gives coaches all the tools they need to succeed, but finding the right fit is also important.

Edrick wrote:The 2017 class on the state of Indiana is loaded. There's probably a half dozen NBA players in the class. Given that everyone and their mom believes he will or is actively trying to get Tom Crean fired, that's going to deliver Butler another class -- possibly better than the one that Rivals ranked #20 in 2016.

That is extremely exciting. Best of luck!

marquette wrote:Crean, on the other hand, was great at getting people excited. A lot of what he did seems pretty corny in retrospect (for example, riding around the Al McGuire Center on an ATV in a karate gi) but definitely got the team and fans fired up. He embraced new technology and was one of the motivators behind the basketball practice facility (the Al). He also recruited some of the best talent in the history of Marquette (Dwyane Wade, Steve Novak, Travis Diener, etc). He was and is a terrible in-game coach. He is also a bizzare individual (for example, the constant fake tan, the fact that he gave all the awards at his basketball camp to his son, his in-game and post-game antics).

He's a strange, strange little man.

Non-IU fans in Indiana have thought he was strange and overrated for years. IU fans started seeing the light about a year or two ago. He's probably gone in July unless he has an unbelievable season.

This site demonstrates the readiness of some IU fans to get rid of him. http://www.tomcreanbuyout.com/

the fact that he gave all the awards at his basketball camp to his son

Can we get some details on this?

ChelseaFriar wrote:

the fact that he gave all the awards at his basketball camp to his son

Can we get some details on this?

There's not a whole lot to say, really. Crean used to run basketball camps, same as pretty much every coach, for supplemental income. Camps bring in a pretty decent amount of revenue as parents will pay a few hundred bucks for their kids to be taught by professionals for a week or however long. Anyway, one year Crean's son enrolls at his basketball camp. Kid was, by most accounts, decent but not spectacular. Anyway, they have a little get-together at the end of the camp where the parents are invited and there are various activities. One such activity is giving out awards. You know, basic stuff "offensive player," "defensive player," "most improved," "best teammate," "sportsmanship," etc. So the time for the awards comes and these parents, who paid for their children to come here, watch in stunned amazement as award after award goes to the younger Crean. Every. Single. One. Needless to say, there was a minor controversy.

I haven't had any luck finding the original account from some parents in attendance, but it comes up on the MU board from time to time. A couple of examples:

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic= ... #msg769229

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic= ... #msg766449

Anyway, a guy who has this kind of relationship with his son is obviously a bit off.

Marquette: To be fair the team from my freshman year only had one holdover from Crean in Hayward so Buzz really only had the 08-09 team that was essentially still Crean's players (I don't know how much you buy into Chicos telling everyone otherwise).

Everyone else: Buzz is as dumb as a dumb rock with basketball knowledge. He's great at developing leaders and motivation but on the recruiting trail he must have lied through his teeth because we had an absurd amount of transfers in that time for being as successful as we were.

I can't speak about Crean because till my senior year of HS I was a depaul fan but I know there was a lot of critisms on his ability to put together back to back recruiting classes. He failed in the NIT and NCAA tournament 7 times out of the 8 bids. 6 of those years we had absolute beasts on our team in guys like Novak, Deiner, Wade (2002 year), Matthews, Mcneal, James, and Hayward and he still failed. That doesn't exactly show someone who has good coaching abilities. But I have to respect him like O'Neil for getting us back on the main stage.

Tom Crean and Buzz Williams were right fits for Marquette during their respective tenures. When Crean was hired, Marquette was in dire need of excitement and rejuvenation. The program desired new life after Mike Deane derailed the momentum that Kevin O'Neil helped re-establish in the early 90's. He brought an up-tempo offense with great guard play, and he was able to get Dwayne Wade on board (in addition to Dominic James, Wes Matthews, Jerel McNeal, Lazar Hayward, Travis Diener, Steve Novak, etc.). The Final Four run is the deepest we have gone since the 1977 National Championship. When he left for Indiana, he was there for almost 10 years - it was time for him to take the next step in his coaching career. We had struggled mightily in the tournament since the run in 2003. While a lot of people were left spurned, it was really best for both to move on. For the record, it has been reported than he only interviewed with just two schools while at Marquette (Indiana in 2008 and Kansas in 2003).

With regards to Buzz, his tenure experienced an even higher level of consistent success than with Crean. While a Buzz team never made the Final Four, his teams always made the tournament, and reached consecutive Sweet 16s and an Elite Eight. He brought in tough-nosed, overlooked players with a chip on their shoulders, and instilled an "us vs. them" mentality. There were hardly any games where a Buzz-coached team got out-worked or out-played, and his teams earned national respect for their resolve and toughness. Unfortunately, with the type of players he recruited, it led to some backlash/disdain from certain administrators and alumni, as there were more than a handful of incidents with the players outside the gym. It also didn't help that some of those players weren't graduating, affecting the graduation rates of a few basketball teams. Like Crean, many felt that Buzz had simply warned out his welcome, as reports of his dissatisfaction with the new Big East (yes, I used new ) and it's marketability and reach. He wanted to still be in a league with Boeheim, Dixon, Brey, and Pitino. He wanted to be on ESPN. His connection through Mick Cronin, a good personal friend within the coaching ranks, was able to lead him to Whit Babcock, who gave him the keys to the city at Virginia Tech.

All in all, what's happened is for the best. There will be a time when Wojo decides to move on to a better job (Duke?), and Marquette will prosper and succeed with another new coach. Marquette is bigger than Al McGuire, Rick Majerus, Kevin O'Neill, Tom Crean, Buzz Williams and Steve Wojchiechowski. It is a basketball program built on numerous coaches and players, with different eras that were all successful in their own right.

Golden I don't wanna argue but who exactly are you referring to about not graduating? Outside of Crowder I'm pretty sure everybody graduated or transferred minus Blue.