Welcome to The Holy Land of Hoops

FBS board produces a formal proposal to split Division I down football lines

There has been a lot of talk about the creation of a "Division 4," in college athletics, to accommodate the needs of the largest earners and spenders in big time college sports. Now, the concept is beginning to take better shape, and the first formal proposal for a split has been made public. The Division I-A Faculty Athletics Representatives (FAR) released a proposal to form a new division within the NCAA.

Initial speculation ranged from the BCS schools leaving the NCAA structure entirely, separating into their own division to forming a new football-only subdivision within Division I. The proposal produced by FAR suggest something between the final two options.

This proposal outlines a plan in which the majority of schools and conferences currently in Division I-FBS would separate from the FCS and non-football schools within Division I of the NCAA and form a new division. In many of the non-football sports, however, it is envisioned that these football schools would also participate in the post-season competitions as the FCS and non-football schools.

The purpose of the split is for the schools earning the most revenue and with the most spending power in Division I to be able to play under a different set of rules. Previous plans to offer stipends to cover the full cost of attendance for Student-Athletes that were put forward by those BCS schools were tabled by the NCAA well over a year ago, when more than 160 schools — mostly smaller athletic programs — objected.

As the proposal states:

The FBS must be the master of its own fate, particularly with regard to matters of enhancement of the student-athlete experience that depend on increased revenue allocation.

The FAR proposal goes into details on governance and structure of the new division, but more interesting,The new division proposed would create a harder line in football and a blurred line in the other sports, essentially.

The FAR board supports a new division, "more closely aligned in resources dedicated to athletics programs and in types of issues faced," according to FAR president Brian Shannon, a Texas Tech law professor.

"There is wide consensus that the current Division I governance model is not working," said Jo Potuto, Nebraska constitutional law professor and past president of the I-A FAR. "A separate FBS division offers more streamlined governance among schools with comparable revenue streams."

For football, it's the end of the I-A/FBS and I-AA/FCS designations, essentially. In the other sports, the BCS schools and perhaps most of the rest of FBS would have their cake and eat it too; they would play for the same NCAA titles in basketball and other sports, but do so under a different set of rules, that won't be available to the schools left behind in Division I.

The move, thus far, is being driven by FBS football interests, particularly those of the schools in the five-highest revenue conferences. The proposal produced today was non-committal about the inclusiveness of the new division, though it would seem like the proposal intends to exclude. The FAR wrote that one of the reasons for a separate division for FBS football schools was the relative ease for other Division I institutions to move up from I-AA (which is, ironically, a move that was subject to an only-recently ended moratorium and new, more restrictive rules).

An FBS remaining as part of Division I is less likely to maintain its integrity over time as a separate voting entity and would likely be unable to avoid the experience under the current governance structure in which institutions and conferences with very different resources and facing either different issues, or the same issues but in different degrees of acuteness, were able to move to Division IA or Division I FBS, thereby recreating the need for a separate FBS voice.



For the new Big East conference, a move like this would potentially be a blow to momentum that is being built up in basketball already. The recruiting successes of conference schools that have been made since the league was announced could be negated in the future by a new division that can offer basketball athletes a stipend or full-cost of attendance.

That, however, hasn't been determined yet, and the FAR proposal may not be the only one or the final one.

"Obviously, there is a fair amount of debate concerning the governance issue, and we are starting to see various constituents/stakeholders staking out their positions on the matter," Villanova AD Vince Nicastro wrote to VUhoops. Those constituents include the Division I-A Athletic Directors and NACDA, who have not publicized any recommendation just yet.

The premise that changes to Division I governance needs to be discussed, however, is one that Villanova seems to accept. Particularly the ability to offer "some greater autonomy and flexibility" to the schools "at the top of the food chain," and specifically at the highest level of football.

"I think we all would like some flexibility to make decisions on a sport-specific basis from time to time. We [the Big East] want to compete at the national level across a number of sports, so our objective as a conference will be to stay aligned with them (the Big 5 conferences) as much as possible."

Indeed, Villanova and the Big East will be looking for a way to stay at the table when it comes to the highest levels of basketball. Partially due to their current hold on that status, and perhaps more importantly, to ensure that the ever-important media dollars continue to flow in from the likes of Fox Sports.

The next big date to circle on this debate will be the NCAA's convention in January. There, Nicastro expects a number of proposals and models for change — to include the FAR model that was released recently — to be put on the table for discussion. After that convention, the picture of where the NCAA's top division is heading should become clearer.

http://www.vuhoops.com/catholic-7-news- ... ion-i-down

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


I find this topic thoroughly confusing and aggravating, someone correct me if I am wrong, but I read this article as the following being PROPOSED by the big money FBS football schools:

*Split the big money FBS football programs into their own division separate and ungoverned by the NCAA
*Other non football sports at the FBS schools as well as non FBS football schools (Big East for example) would remain in a single NCAA division and compete for the same championships (ie: March Madness)
*FBS schools would however have their own rules in all sports, so in basketball they could offer stipends and other goodies that non FBS schools could not.

So in this scenario the March Madness tourney (and any non conference reg season matchups) would be tipped in favor of the FBS schools who have the recruiting advantage that the BE schools for example would not.

Now I know Val Ackerman and the BE have publicly stated they want to be able to offer the same things to recruits as the FBS schools, so we have to watch and see where this goes, but it sounds like its going to get messy and possibly damaging in the future, if greed and power wins out (when does it not). Seems to me the Big Football schools want to create their own football division, but in other sports "let everyone compete" except not on equal grounds.

I don't know if the NCAA would go along with that. I realize that the tourney is where they get all their money, but I'm pretty sure there would be very strong legal challenges to overcome in order for the P5 to be able to play under different rules (Georgetown puts out some pretty good lawyers, I hear, and Marquette has the best sports law program in the country). If they keep their other sports under the same rules as the other NCAA schools, then we have a possibility. If not, then we are looking at a scenario where the P5 will have to have a complete brake from the NCAA. In that event it would be necessary to take along several non-football conferences in order to fill out their non-revenue sports, and the Big East is probably the top of that list. Hopefully the college sports bubble bursts before they have a chance to fully go through with this either way. Without the massive influx of tv dollars, this all becomes moot.

marquette wrote:I don't know if the NCAA would go along with that. I realize that the tourney is where they get all their money, but I'm pretty sure there would be very strong legal challenges to overcome in order for the P5 to be able to play under different rules (Georgetown puts out some pretty good lawyers, I hear, and Marquette has the best sports law program in the country). If they keep their other sports under the same rules as the other NCAA schools, then we have a possibility. If not, then we are looking at a scenario where the P5 will have to have a complete brake from the NCAA. In that event it would be necessary to take along several non-football conferences in order to fill out their non-revenue sports, and the Big East is probably the top of that list. Hopefully the college sports bubble bursts before they have a chance to fully go through with this either way. Without the massive influx of tv dollars, this all becomes moot.

Well said. That's exactly why I hate SLU's involvement in the Dumpster Fire so much. If they split, there is no way the Atlantic 10 goes with the bigger schools. If that happens, every school not in the Big Division becomes nationally irrelevant.

I personally think that what will eventually happen is that the FBS football schools will get their own division for football, but only football. The idea that they would split apart and form their own division and still compete with everyone else will not fly. There are too many important alumni within the government from non-FBS schools for them to be able to get away with this without some form of lawsuit shutting it down. You might laugh, but we have seen in the past how politicians can get worked up about sports. I also firmly believe that if they did try and form a new division that the Big East would do everything in its power to be a part of it. I'm sure they could work out a way to have us there and just having us abstain on all votes involving football. Ackerman knows what to do and she will keep us in the top competition. But like I said, this will only happen for football. I think the NCAA is ready to admit defeat in football, but it will not give up on its big revenue tournaments most notably basketball.

This would kill non-Power 5 schools. This sounds bad, but I'm not worried one bit. If the Power 5 tried to fully break from the rest of the NCAA for all sports, I think Congress steps in. Congressmen and senators from states not in the Power 5 (e.g., Nevada) will make sure that this won't happen.

XBand15 wrote:I personally think that what will eventually happen is that the FBS football schools will get their own division for football, but only football. The idea that they would split apart and form their own division and still compete with everyone else will not fly. There are too many important alumni within the government from non-FBS schools for them to be able to get away with this without some form of lawsuit shutting it down. You might laugh, but we have seen in the past how politicians can get worked up about sports. I also firmly believe that if they did try and form a new division that the Big East would do everything in its power to be a part of it. I'm sure they could work out a way to have us there and just having us abstain on all votes involving football. Ackerman knows what to do and she will keep us in the top competition. But like I said, this will only happen for football. I think the NCAA is ready to admit defeat in football, but it will not give up on its big revenue tournaments most notably basketball.

Football only for the P5? It's difficult. Take Louisville and Kentucky, for example. They are going to pay stipends to football players, but not basketball players, who generate considerable revenue? (Ville hoops profits outpace many FB program profits). So expect lawsuits from basketball interests if you pay FB players but not hoopsters. And if you pay male athlete stipends, you have to reciprocate to female athletes to comply with Title IX law, which is not exclusive to the NCAA. So that's why all sports get dragged along with FB in such a move.

Dave wrote:Football only for the P5? It's difficult. Take Louisville and Kentucky, for example. They are going to pay stipends to football players, but not basketball players, who generate considerable revenue? (Ville hoops profits outpace many FB program profits). So expect lawsuits from basketball interests if you pay FB players but not hoopsters. And if you pay male athlete stipends, you have to reciprocate to female athletes to comply with Title IX law, which is not exclusive to the NCAA. So that's why all sports get dragged along with FB in such a move.

That would get very expensive, very fast. If P5 schools have to pay their women's athletes and non-rev athletes anywhere near the same amount as their revenue generating athletes they will go broke in 1 school year (P5 schools have a lot more non-revs and women's sports than us). You are talking about paying maybe $10,000/year/athlete. We are talking about millions of dollars for these schools. Is it really worth it overall to separate and get a bump in revenue, just to have that negated by having to pay athletes?

marquette wrote:

Dave wrote:Football only for the P5? It's difficult. Take Louisville and Kentucky, for example. They are going to pay stipends to football players, but not basketball players, who generate considerable revenue? (Ville hoops profits outpace many FB program profits). So expect lawsuits from basketball interests if you pay FB players but not hoopsters. And if you pay male athlete stipends, you have to reciprocate to female athletes to comply with Title IX law, which is not exclusive to the NCAA. So that's why all sports get dragged along with FB in such a move.

That would get very expensive, very fast. If P5 schools have to pay their women's athletes and non-rev athletes anywhere near the same amount as their revenue generating athletes they will go broke in 1 school year (P5 schools have a lot more non-revs and women's sports than us). You are talking about paying maybe $10,000/year/athlete. We are talking about millions of dollars for these schools. Is it really worth it overall to separate and get a bump in revenue, just to have that negated by having to pay athletes?

For the P5 conferences, and their huge TV contracts.... yes. That's the whole point.

My view is FB and Men's hoops will earn the stipend. Women's hoops and other non-revs will get stipends on Title IX matches. Other non-rev men's sports will not get stipends.

Other conferences will be invited to play along by those rules. But many won't be able to afford to. So the Big East likely matches for hoops, and pays Men's and Women's. That would be a level playing field for basketball only.

The real inequity becomes women's olympic sports. In that the P5 (if this goes through), they get ~85 olympic sports stipends in Women's sports due to the required Title IX match. Each program applies those matches differently, to different sports.

That's why there would no longer be a level playing field at championships, with recruited paid women athletes from the SEC (Cross Country, Track, Swimming, for example) vs non-paid athletes from the Big East.

The FBS split will be very difficult.

DumpsterFireA10 wrote:

marquette wrote:I don't know if the NCAA would go along with that. I realize that the tourney is where they get all their money, but I'm pretty sure there would be very strong legal challenges to overcome in order for the P5 to be able to play under different rules (Georgetown puts out some pretty good lawyers, I hear, and Marquette has the best sports law program in the country). If they keep their other sports under the same rules as the other NCAA schools, then we have a possibility. If not, then we are looking at a scenario where the P5 will have to have a complete brake from the NCAA. In that event it would be necessary to take along several non-football conferences in order to fill out their non-revenue sports, and the Big East is probably the top of that list. Hopefully the college sports bubble bursts before they have a chance to fully go through with this either way. Without the massive influx of tv dollars, this all becomes moot.

Well said. That's exactly why I hate SLU's involvement in the Dumpster Fire so much. If they split, there is no way the Atlantic 10 goes with the bigger schools. If that happens, every school not in the Big Division becomes nationally irrelevant.

You need to relax a bit man. If anything, this will compel the key basketball-only leagues to ally with each other. WCC, MVC, Horizon, A-10, and the Big East will vote with each other and lobby for their interests.

XBand15 wrote:I personally think that what will eventually happen is that the FBS football schools will get their own division for football, but only football. The idea that they would split apart and form their own division and still compete with everyone else will not fly. There are too many important alumni within the government from non-FBS schools for them to be able to get away with this without some form of lawsuit shutting it down. You might laugh, but we have seen in the past how politicians can get worked up about sports. I also firmly believe that if they did try and form a new division that the Big East would do everything in its power to be a part of it. I'm sure they could work out a way to have us there and just having us abstain on all votes involving football. Ackerman knows what to do and she will keep us in the top competition. But like I said, this will only happen for football. I think the NCAA is ready to admit defeat in football, but it will not give up on its big revenue tournaments most notably basketball.

I could see some trimming of the fat. There is utterly no reason why we have 38 autobid conferences. That can at least be knocked down to 25, so instead of 363 schools, its down to more like 250. Tournament stays as fun, more at-large bids are created, and the $$$ pot doesn't have to be split as many ways.