Would Miller Have Left Dayton If They Were In The BE?

[DudeAnon]

I hate to derail this thread, but I thought I would provide some local insight on how people are handling the Miller hire (I live in the Indianapolis area, FYI). It''s relatively relevant to the thread.

Generally, I would say people are "happy" with the hire, but they aren't treating it as a "slam dunk" like a lot of the national media guys are. Names regularly mentioned for the job by IU fans: Brad Stevens, Billy Donovan, Steve Alford, Sean Miller, Chris Mack, Fred Hoiberg, Tony Bennett, Gregg Marshall, Tom Izzo, Thad Matta (I think that mostly covers it). Some fans were rather delusional thinking some of those coaches were actually options.

I think it is a "B" hire. I think Marshall or Alford would've been "better" hires, but they both have so much baggage. The timing of the hire suggests Miller wasn't their first choice.

I can only go off of the few games I have seen Dayton play the last few years. But each time (apart from the Xavier whooping) I was impressed. His teams played as fast in transition as any other team I have seen and were very aggressive in defense. He also has a knack of getting his teams to March and winning. I think it was a great hire.

Edit: Also, what is going on with Brad Stevens? Down 0-2 to the Bulls?

[Xavier4036]

What exactly is Fox selling CBS? Some of the lower tier games they don't want to air. DePaul and St John's- projected to finish 9th and 10th- were both on there 3 times this year in conference play.

So FOX sold 3 DePaul games and 3 St. John's games to CBS. Guess what? They also sold 3 Villanova games and 3 Creighton games to CBS Sports Network. Xavier and Georgetown both had 2 games on CBSSN. FOX doesn't need more inventory - if they did they wouldn't sell all these games to CBS each year. I know you keep saying FOX is going to demand the Big East expands because they need more inventory. FOX already has too much inventory - it was selling games of the defending national champion.

By getting 2 more teams, the number of conference games goes up from 90 to 108. The number of OOC home games goes up from approx. 70 to approx. 84(saying 7 per school). So number of games goes up from 160 to 192. So even if Fox doesn't air more games, they get more of the better games.

See above. FOX doesn't want more games especially from schools that aren't going to move the needle in terms of viewership. There are no realistic options for expansion right now that move the needle in terms of viewership

You can act like the round robin is a sacred cow. I don't believe for a second that the Big East or ESPECIALLY Fox views the round robin as a sacred cow. Do you think they want to have good teams having to play DePaul twice? No way in hell. It hurts the RPI and folks don't want to watch it. No one is acting like the round robin is a sacred cow. What people are saying the Big East has had a really strong 4 year run after realignment. 70% of teams in the NCAA this year plus an E8 and S16 team, 60% of teams in last year plus the National Champion. MSG is selling out the championship game. FS1 continues to improve by signing well-known anchors and analysts plus getting the MLB, Big 10, etc. Big East ratings specifically, are improving - increasing more than 100% from 2014 to 2017. What we are saying is there is NO compelling reason to add a school that 1.) won't improve TV ratings 2.) doesn't have a national brand 3.) doesn't have institutional fit with BE schools

[Xavier4036]

I couldn't disagree with you more. Teams don't move needles by themselves - with rare exceptions. Were Creighton, Butler, and Xavier chose because they were going to "move the needle"? Good teams in bad leagues make for bad games that no one wants to watch. VCU in the A10 doesn't make up for Fordham, Duquesne, Bonaventure, St Louis, etc. follow your own logic. On the one hand, you're claiming that UConn would move the needle, but OTOH you're pointing to conference TV contract to prove that VCU doesn't move the needle. Following that logic, the pithy AAC contract is evidence that UConn doesn't move the needle. Bit we all know that they would if they were in the right conference.

Exactly. UConn vs Georgetown or UConn vs Villanova or UConn vs St. John's are types of matchups and teams that can move the needle in TV ratings. Same with Notre Dame. A lot of these other so called candidates cannot. VCU vs Georgetown or VCU vs St. John's isn't going to move the needle. At all.

Regardless of whether a team would move any needles, that should not be the criterion for membership.But that's what you have been arguing all along. That the Big East needs to add schools to increase TV viewership on FOX. In fact, I think you said BE leadership is "asleep at the wheel" if we don't add more teams. It's Year 5, we need to get TV viewership up. No more excuses. If it were, UConn would never have been invited to the Big East back in 1979.So you are comparing how TV would have played a role in college basketball conferences in 1979 compared to how TV plays a role in 2017. Yea, that's an apples to apples comparison. Creighton would not have been invited in 2013. VCU right now has a far, far better history than UConn did back then. Big East 1979 vs Big East 2017, Again, odd comparisonCandidates should be evaluated not only on their history of success, VCU has made it to the Sweet 16 one time - once- in their entire historybut by how well they are managed, by their level of commitment, by their level of fan and alumni support, by their facilities, by how well they are financed, by their market potential, and the like. VCU scores well on all those criteria. That's all well and good. However, you are saying the Big East must expand to increase TV ratings. VCU (or any other schools not named UConn or Notre Dame) is not moving the needle on national TV. So then why would the Big East schools? The last 2 years, we've gotten 60% and 70% of the conference in the tournament with a national champion, E8 and S16In addition, they are right on the edge of the footprint, and also don't fit the institutional make-up of any of the other Big East schoolshave relatively easy access to MSG for the BE tournament, and have a history of fans traveling to NYC (Barkleys) for their conference tournament. The VCU program would potentially make the BE a stronger conference and their program shows the potential to grow with the benefits of conference membership - just as UConn's did.

The fact that Fox is selling games to CBS means absolutely nothing in terms of inventory. Other than they don't "need" more inventory as Stever continually statesit's a business decision. If they can make more money by selling games to CBS than they can by putting the game on FS2, then they'll sell the games. That's a factor of the strength of FS2 and the ability of those matchups to draw an audience. Furthermore, selling games on a Tuesday night is not the same as selling them on a Saturday or Sunday when there are many more programming slots. I remember one Saturday when all BE teams played on Saturday and there were no games on Sunday. Fox couldn't have used more inventory that weekend? More inventory doesn't just mean more games but it also means more high quality games to choose from. They don't want inventory for the sake of inventory, but they do want matchups that will i,prove ratings, a Gonzaga-Villanova matchup would draw a lot more eyeballs than a DePaul-Villanova rating. OK, I feel like we are talking in circles. Adding VCU (or UD or SLU) to the mix isn't a "higher quality" game than 90% of the Big East. Frankly the fact that Fox spent money on B1G means could just as readily be considered a sign of dissatisfaction with BE ratings as a sign that there inventory is now full. So we should dilute the BE product by adding more regional teams that won't move the needle anymore than the current BE teams?

We have no idea what discussions are going on between Fox me the Big East, but it was widely reported in 2012-13 that they favore a 12 team league. I imagine that they still do. Those reports support Stever's hypothesis that they will be asking the conference to expand. Stever is just speculating, but it's not a wild ideaAgain, if FOX needed more inventory - they wouldn't be selling multiple Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, Marquette, etc. games per year. .

[stever20]

Nova had 2 games on CBSSN in conference play. 1 each vs St John's and DePaul.
Creighton had 3 games on CBSSN. 1 each vs St John's(there they are again), Providence, and Seton Hall.
Georgetown had 3 games on CBSSN. 1 each vs Providence, Butler, and DePaul(there they are again)
Xavier had 1 conference game on CBSSN. vs Marquette
so of these teams- you have 2 games on there from St John's(8th), Providence(who was picked 9th), and DePaul(10th). You don't think Fox would be more interested if it's a Nova/VCU game instead of Nova/DePaul?

Also would say that the contract with CBS was signed 4 years ago and is a 6 year deal. They don't sell games year to year like you are making it out to be.... It'll be interesting to see what happens 2 years from now when that 6 year deal expires.

If there are 192 games instead of 160 games, instead of fox getting the top 100/160 they get the top 100/192. Instead of just the top 62.5%, it's the top 52.1%. Plus they could use some of the other games to try to build up FS2, something they desperately need to do.

Also, FS1 already had MLB- has had that from day 1.

Looking at it- for the 51 games on FS1 this year, BE games averaged only 157k viewers. Top game drew not even 500k. 15 of the 51 games didn't even draw 100k. Of those 15, a whopping 6 had DePaul in them- including the 4 lowest rated games all conference year long. (oh and they had the next 2 lowest games as well after 100k- at 102 and 105 k- so DePaul was in 8 of the 17 lowest conference games all year on FS1).

[Xavier4036]

Nova had 2 games on CBSSN in conference play. 1 each vs St John's and DePaul.
Creighton had 3 games on CBSSN. 1 each vs St John's(there they are again), Providence, and Seton Hall.
Georgetown had 3 games on CBSSN. 1 each vs Providence, Butler, and DePaul(there they are again)
Xavier had 1 conference game on CBSSN. vs Marquette
so of these teams- you have 2 games on there from St John's(8th), Providence(who was picked 9th), and DePaul(10th). Stever - FOX sold 5 Providence games to CBS. FOX sold 4 Georgetown and Butler conference games to CBS. Sold 3 Creighton, Seton Hall, DePaul, Marquette and St. John's games to CBS. Sold 2 Xavier and Villanova conference games to CBS. Those are the facts. You can try to spin it anyway you want But FOX only sold 3 DePaul or St. John's games all year to CBS (same amount as Creighton, Seton Hall and Marquette and LESS than Georgetown, Butler or Providence) So you were just wrong when you said FOX is only selling crappy games to CBS they don't want to air specifically referencing the 3 DePaul and St. John's games.You don't think Fox would be more interested if it's a Nova/VCU game instead of Nova/DePaul? No. Why would FOX want to pay an additional $3M/year (or $6M/year for more games that don't move the needle. Villanova/VCU isn't going to move the needle anymore than the current Big East matchups - and probably less of a national appeal than most of the current BE matchups

Also would say that the contract with CBS was signed 4 years ago and is a 6 year deal. They don't sell games year to year like you are making it out to be.... It'll be interesting to see what happens 2 years from now when that 6 year deal expires. I am not sure what you are trying to get at here. "They don't sell games year to year like you are making it out to be" Surely, they pick the games year-to-year they are selling to CBS since the schedules are made yearly. If you are insinuating the 6-year contract stipulates the number of games FOX sells to CBS, I am sure you are correct. FOX will only be interested in selling MORE 2 years from now, once they have B10 games. It won't be going down because there is no room/need for more inventory

If there are 192 games instead of 160 games, instead of fox getting the top 100/160 they get the top 100/192. Instead of just the top 62.5%, it's the top 52.1%. Plus they could use some of the other games to try to build up FS2, something they desperately need to do. You can play with math all you want but adding schools like VCU or SLU or Dayton (assuming UConn or Notre Dame will never happen) - those 3 schools don't make more "top" games. Also, they have enough inventory to use other games to build up FS2. They choose not to. They would rather sell to CBS. Why do you assume if they had more games, they would put it on FS2 and not sell to someone like they do now with excess games?

Also, FS1 already had MLB- has had that from day 1. Has it always had the NL championship?

Looking at it- for the 51 games on FS1 this year, BE games averaged only 157k viewers. Top game drew not even 500k. 15 of the 51 games didn't even draw 100k. Of those 15, a whopping 6 had DePaul in them- including the 4 lowest rated games all conference year long. (oh and they had the next 2 lowest games as well after 100k- at 102 and 105 k- so DePaul was in 8 of the 17 lowest conference games all year on FS1).

OK. I have no arguments we all would like viewership to increase. The problem is adding schools like a VCU or SLU or Dayton DO NOT increase viewership in a meaningful way. There is absolutely NO compelling reason to add schools like that to the Big East. They don't do anything for TV ratings in a meaningful way. The matchups they would provide are not anymore compelling than what we already have. Again, The Big East has gotten 70% of the conference in the tournament this year and 60% last year and 50% the year before. A Sweet 16 and Elite 8 team this year, the National Champion last year and a Sweet 16 team the year before. We are selling out MSG for the BE tournament championship. While TV ratings aren't where we would want them, they have increased more than 100% from 2014 to 2017. There is NO reason to add teams right now that 1.) will NOT move the needle on ratings anymore than the teams/matchups we already have 2.) have no institutional fit with the Big East schools (VCU) and 3.) have no national brand or sustained success in March. I mean VCU has gone to ONE Sweet 16 in the history of their program. ONE. Dayton has made ONE in the past 33 years. SLU hasn't made ANY in the modern era of college basketball - their last one was 1957.

Stever, since you are such a Big East fan, I have to say I missed you around here throughout the month of March. As you spent ALL season long predicting doom and gloom for the Big East in terms of getting bids for the NCAA tournament. That was what you spent hours on here - bringing up the most unlikely and implausible scenarios as long as it predicted low bids for the BE. Once the Big East got 70% of its teams in the NCAA, you went MIA. When we had teams making runs to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8, you were MIA. Even when your so-called team Georgetown fired their coach and hired Ewing, you were MIA. For as much as you post on here, I'd think you would have been ALL over that. Nothing. Absent Stever through March.

Now that we are in the offseason, you are back in full-force talking about your favorite topics - FS1, TV ratings, the need for BE expansion, general doom and gloom for the future of the BE and I am sure soon predictions/warnings on how we will only get 4 teams in the tournament this year. Just do us a favor and go back to where you were in March.

[stever20]

Your numbers on who was given(the correct term, it's a 6 year contract) the most to CBS is very telling. Providence was picked preseason to finish 9th. So they had the most. Xavier and Nova picked 1 and 2. They had the fewest.

I think you are wrong when you say that NOVA/VCU won't move the needle more than Nova/DePaul. I do know that it would move the needle more than DePaul/St John's that didn't get more than 41k. Given there were 15 games that didn't get 100k, you don't think FS1 would like to move those off?

FS1 has had the LCS in 2014, 2015, 2016. (I was wrong about 2013- they left things on Fox for the remainder of that season). They alternate LCS- so like this year, they'll be showing the ALCS.

It's your opinion that Dayton, VCU, or SLU wouldn't increase viewership.

As far as the performance- I think the schools themselves know that this year was extremely fluky getting 7 teams in the tourney. If injuries do not happen, there are at the max 5 teams in the tourney, and quite possibly only 4. Pretty much absolute no way Marquette gets in without the 2 road wins vs Creighton or Xavier. Seton Hall doesn't get in without the 2 home wins vs Creighton or Xavier. Providence doesn't get in without the wins over Creighton or Xavier. Given the league had at larges 4(Providence), 5(Xavier), 7(Marquette), 11(Seton Hall). You can act like it was in the bag all you want- but that's a joke. The Big East has had nothing but good luck since formation.

And I was on here in March quite a bit. I said that I thought Ewing would be a huge mistake. I still think that.

[Savannah Jay]

As far as the performance- I think the schools themselves know that this year was extremely fluky getting 7 teams in the tourney. If injuries do not happen, there are at the max 5 teams in the tourney, and quite possibly only 4. Pretty much absolute no way Marquette gets in without the 2 road wins vs Creighton or Xavier. Seton Hall doesn't get in without the 2 home wins vs Creighton or Xavier. Providence doesn't get in without the wins over Creighton or Xavier. Given the league had at larges 4(Providence), 5(Xavier), 7(Marquette), 11(Seton Hall). You can act like it was in the bag all you want- but that's a joke. The Big East has had nothing but good luck since formation.

If injuries do not happen, we could have had two teams make much deeper runs in the tournament, perhaps even final four runs. That doesn't feel like "the Big East has had nothing but luck since formation." You are quick to point something out if it gives you an opportunity to attempt to disparage the league, but fail to point out the very obvious counter to your statement. Did Creighton and X lose more games (which translated into wins for other schools) after they lost their PGs? That is a fair statement. It's also fair to say that Creighton and X were serious national title contenders before the injuries. But you can't bring yourself to actually say something nice.

It's funny how you are quick to label everyone else's comments as "their opinion" and then throw out a bunch of opinions of your own.

Which schools told you that they think it was a fluke that they got in the tournament? Did Cooley or one of his players tell you? Wojo? Is Delgado a personal friend?

Dude, we know you are not actually a Big East fan. Out of 7950 posts on this board alone, their might have been 3 that said something genuinely nice about the conference. The rest is all wet blanket, sky is falling, "nothing but luck" about the conference and it's teams.

Based on the number of posts and your overt negativity, I have diagnosed that you just really need to get your "tires rotated," preferably by a red headed woman. Cheers.

[stever20]

As far as the performance- I think the schools themselves know that this year was extremely fluky getting 7 teams in the tourney. If injuries do not happen, there are at the max 5 teams in the tourney, and quite possibly only 4. Pretty much absolute no way Marquette gets in without the 2 road wins vs Creighton or Xavier. Seton Hall doesn't get in without the 2 home wins vs Creighton or Xavier. Providence doesn't get in without the wins over Creighton or Xavier. Given the league had at larges 4(Providence), 5(Xavier), 7(Marquette), 11(Seton Hall). You can act like it was in the bag all you want- but that's a joke. The Big East has had nothing but good luck since formation.

If injuries do not happen, we could have had two teams make much deeper runs in the tournament, perhaps even final four runs. That doesn't feel like "the Big East has had nothing but luck since formation." You are quick to point something out if it gives you an opportunity to attempt to disparage the league, but fail to point out the very obvious counter to your statement. Did Creighton and X lose more games (which translated into wins for other schools) after they lost their PGs? That is a fair statement. It's also fair to say that Creighton and X were serious national title contenders before the injuries. But you can't bring yourself to actually say something nice.

It's funny how you are quick to label everyone else's comments as "their opinion" and then throw out a bunch of opinions of your own.

Which schools told you that they think it was a fluke that they got in the tournament? Did Cooley or one of his players tell you? Wojo? Is Delgado a personal friend?

Dude, we know you are not actually a Big East fan. Out of 7950 posts on this board alone, their might have been 3 that said something genuinely nice about the conference. The rest is all wet blanket, sky is falling, "nothing but luck" about the conference and it's teams.

Based on the number of posts and your overt negativity, I have diagnosed that you just really need to get your "tires rotated," preferably by a red headed woman. Cheers.

I have said on here that I thought it would have been much better for the league had Creighton and Xavier not had the injuries. Said it a lot actually. But folks here seem to think that the almighty is tourney teams. So in those terms, the injuries were by far the best thing possible. I 100% disagree with that. I think how you do in the tourney is what matters.

Now having said that. Xavier before injury they weren't firing on all phases. 15-6 and had just lost 4 of 5 games. Only 2 wins vs tourney teams(and those 2 were vs play in teams PC and Wake). They still made the elite 8. Creighton I'll give you a lot more than Xavier because they were so much better pre-injury.

[_lh]

I think we can all agree on the following:

1.) The Big East does not need to expand.

2.) The Big East can expand if they want for the right (slum dunk candidate) like UCONN, ND or Kansas.

3.) VCU and UD fans really want the Big East to expand and invite them in.

4.) There is no value in adding VCU, UD, SLU, GW, Rhode Island, George Mason, WSU, St. Bonaventure, etc. from the A10.

5.) UD and VCU trolls will continue to create threads about expansion in order to talk up their two programs.

6.) Stever20 is a fan or a team trapped in the AAC and posts here to only stir the pot.

[X-man]

stever20 is an AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCC fan, so none of his posts about the BE should be taken seriously. And it's time for this thread to "go away".