The Gonzaga Thread... with Poll...

[kayako]

Really? I haven't read anywhere they'd want to bring a bunch of schools. If that's true, disregard my above post. If it's only 1 other school I'd gladly take them, but absolutely no more than that.

They are not dumb enough to just make an open demand like that, but their stance on this issue seems obvious to me. This is Few's quote just 2 months ago...

“I actually think the Big East is positioned, if they want, to expand,” Few told William C. Rhoden of the New York Times last March. “If they wanted to expand nationally, I think that would be really, really crafty, and they could be a national basketball-only conference.”

[kayako]

Yes, I've seen hints of the western division thing, and I agree that would be a problem. I'd offer to take BYU along with them as a compromise.

I've also read they desperately want out of the WCC. Who wouldn't? They bring tournament money into that conference every single year, only to see it split up 10 ways while almost no one else brings anything. I think they'd like to be in a league in which they see see a few other teams contributing to the pot.

You've convinced me on the geography issue in the past. I'm willing to defer to people with better logistics knowledge on that. But from my pov, bringing other schools is moving goalpost. There isn't one realistic school that'd come with them that wouldn't be awkward at best, probably a lot worse. BYU is like an AAC school, but out west, a scheduling nightmare, and has no rivalry with any current members of the Big East. And it's a school that's a threat to leave as much as Connecticut is. That's a proposal I wouldn't be easily convinced on.

But what if they demand 14 team conference with 7 teams west (GU, Creighton, Marquette, DePaul, team A, team B, team C)? Gotta draw the line somewhere, and to me it ends with Gonzaga.

[_lh]

I like your style, but UConn is not dropping football. They've been playing the sport since the 19th century. Unless America joins the rest of the world and becomes soccer-mad, football is here to stay in Storrs.

With regard to your scenario, the loss of OU, OSU, TX, & TT would bring the Big 12 down to 6, not 8. They'd still have West Virginia out on an island although a little less so with the addition of Cincy. UConn is too big a brand for them not to take them - especially if their football is on the upswing as it likely will be. They will need UConn to get up to 12 and to have another member in the Eastern time zone for the Mountaineers.

The bigger factor is that Notre Dame is merited to the ACC. It's only a matter of time before the old alumni who want to maintain independence die off and the realities of modern college football force the issue so that the Irish include their football in the ACC. At that point, they need #16. UConn is the natural fit

UConn may not have a choice, Bill. UConn needs the P5 in order to survive long-term. It is currently treading water in the American. Playing against Tulsa, Tulane, Houston, SMU, UCF, USF and East Carolina - long-term - is not feasible. Attendance has been down. The results on the field have been down. The only single year where UConn made national noise in football was when they finished in a tie for first (with two other teams), got trounced in the Fiesta Bowl, and didn't get any fans to go to the game. Pasqualoni set the team back several years, and Diaco set it back even further. On top of all of that, the administration had to wait a certain time frame until after the season in order to pay Diaco's buyout.

If the ACC gets ND as a full-member (I think unlikely, but let's say it happens), I would actually think that either Temple/Cincinnati would be higher on the expansion list than UConn. Football is a big part of realignment, and UConn has demonstrated it cannot be consistently competitive (only consistently down). It is not in a great recruiting area either. Temple (Philadelphia) or Cincinnati (Ohio) would present greater market/recruiting areas, IMO.

I agree on UCONN. I was wrong on my math above but maybe the new B12 takes Houston, UC, BYU, Memphis, ECU and SMU and UCONN is left out of the new B12. There are current ACC members that don't want UCONN so there are scenarios where UCONN is left out. Their football stinks and they are kind of on an island geographically to most of the B12. I don't see the ACC adding them just so they can have 16 members.

Point remains that the BE is fine at 10 and does not need to expand and can wait for long shots like UCONN to come knocking. If UCONN never does, so be it.

[Bill Marsh]

Yes, I've seen hints of the western division thing, and I agree that would be a problem. I'd offer to take BYU along with them as a compromise.

I've also read they desperately want out of the WCC. Who wouldn't? They bring tournament money into that conference every single year, only to see it split up 10 ways while almost no one else brings anything. I think they'd like to be in a league in which they see see a few other teams contributing to the pot.

You've convinced me on the geography issue in the past. I'm willing to defer to people with better logistics knowledge on that. But from my pov, bringing other schools is moving goalpost. There isn't one realistic school that'd come with them that wouldn't be awkward at best, probably a lot worse. BYU is like an AAC school, but out west, a scheduling nightmare, and has no rivalry with any current members of the Big East. And it's a school that's a threat to leave as much as Connecticut is. That's a proposal I wouldn't be easily convinced on.

But what if they demand 14 team conference with 7 teams west (GU, Creighton, Marquette, DePaul, team A, team B, team C)? Gotta draw the line somewhere, and to me it ends with Gonzaga.

I agree.

[Bill Marsh]

I like your style, but UConn is not dropping football. They've been playing the sport since the 19th century. Unless America joins the rest of the world and becomes soccer-mad, football is here to stay in Storrs.

With regard to your scenario, the loss of OU, OSU, TX, & TT would bring the Big 12 down to 6, not 8. They'd still have West Virginia out on an island although a little less so with the addition of Cincy. UConn is too big a brand for them not to take them - especially if their football is on the upswing as it likely will be. They will need UConn to get up to 12 and to have another member in the Eastern time zone for the Mountaineers.

The bigger factor is that Notre Dame is merited to the ACC. It's only a matter of time before the old alumni who want to maintain independence die off and the realities of modern college football force the issue so that the Irish include their football in the ACC. At that point, they need #16. UConn is the natural fit

UConn may not have a choice, Bill. UConn needs the P5 in order to survive long-term. It is currently treading water in the American. Playing against Tulsa, Tulane, Houston, SMU, UCF, USF and East Carolina - long-term - is not feasible. Attendance has been down. The results on the field have been down. The only single year where UConn made national noise in football was when they finished in a tie for first (with two other teams), got trounced in the Fiesta Bowl, and didn't get any fans to go to the game. Pasqualoni set the team back several years, and Diaco set it back even further. On top of all of that, the administration had to wait a certain time frame until after the season in order to pay Diaco's buyout.

If the ACC gets ND as a full-member (I think unlikely, but let's say it happens), I would actually think that either Temple/Cincinnati would be higher on the expansion list than UConn. Football is a big part of realignment, and UConn has demonstrated it cannot be consistently competitive (only consistently down). It is not in a great recruiting area either. Temple (Philadelphia) or Cincinnati (Ohio) would present greater market/recruiting areas, IMO.

I agree on UCONN. I was wrong on my math above but maybe the new B12 takes Houston, UC, BYU, Memphis, ECU and SMU and UCONN is left out of the new B12. There are current ACC members that don't want UCONN so there are scenarios where UCONN is left out. Their football stinks and they are kind of on an island geographically to most of the B12. I don't see the ACC adding them just so they can have 16 members.

Point remains that the BE is fine at 10 and does not need to expand and can wait for long shots like UCONN to come knocking. If UCONN never does, so be it.

You may be right. The way I see it is that if/when Notre Dame joins the ACC and the Big XII implodes as the F5 transitions to 4 x 64, the ACC must add #16. Although it's been done with an odd number, that's becoming increasingly difficult with quality independents disappearing and the number of conference games increasing.

Unless the ACC adds Texas, their choices come down to West Virginia, Cincy, or UConn. While UConn has its opponents, so would West Virginia. Florida State got its way with Louisville and that has not gone well with both the Pitino scandal and their academic standing under review. I can't see the academic leaders of the ACC buying into another school like them. UConn was the preferred choice of those academic leaders when Cincy was als available before and I think would be again. Florida State and the other football schols have lost their leverage. With the demise of the Big XII at that point, where would the go?

BC is a separate issue. Their opposition to UConn has not been a football issue; it's been territorial. How has that worked for them? Athletics on Chestnut Hill are an unmitigated disaster. Their administration has changed and with that change has gone a lot of the bad blood. Perhaps they've come to realize that they'll be better served with a rivalry that will stimulate interest and provide road games that their fans can actually travel to rather than "dominating" a region.

UConn needs to improve their football and get their basketball back on track. If they don't, Cincinnati could become the compromise candidate. Ultimately it all comes down to what Texas does.

[_lh]

I just don't see the need for 16 to be that strong for any conference. I don't see any way the ACC takes WVU or UC. If and that is a huge, huge if the ACC can get ND for football, I think UCONN is the likely add.

This is even more off topic but I can see a scenario where more teams become independent in football like ND. Ohio State and Texas for example could get TV deal with Hulu or Yahoo just for their own teams to stream just their football games. Ohio State could have a scheduling agreement with the other B10 football schools like ND does with the ACC and remain in the B10 for all other sports. The way cable and traditional TV packages are going, who knows what the future holds. Those in demand though will find a way to make the most money.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Few points:

Notre Dame is not relinquishing independence because it does not and will not need to. They are the only team that carries an independent, lucrative, national TV contract, which runs for a very long time. Them being independent does not hinder them from making the CFP. With a yearly schedule that features 5 ACC opponents, Stanford, Navy, USC and a rotation involving Michigan, Michigan State and at least one other major P5 opponent (in recent years it's been Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, and Penn State, and in future years it will be Ohio State and Texas A&M), they have one of the best national schedules in college football. Why can they demand to remain independent? Because they can, and the P5/CFP allows them to. They are the most unique program in the country, and certain accommodations will always be made for Notre Dame.

With regards to the Big 12, one (or more) of the following unfathomable situations will occur: 1.) Texas will get rid of the LHN. 2.) Oklahoma/Kansas will leave behind OSU/KSU for a bigger/better conference. 3.) Texas and Oklahoma split up into different conferences. 4.) The Big 12 will backfill with AAC/MWC programs. One of these will inevitably occur. The question is who gets the shaft and is forced down a path that they don't want. Texas is adamant that the LHN isn't going anywhere - but its existence hinders the Big 12 and the other nine schools. Something has to give here. Oklahoma and Kansas are in the unique position of being in any major conference, due to academics, athletics and geography. However, they will not be in a position to bring along their little brothers. Something has to give here. Texas and Oklahoma have been incredibly successful due to their rivalry since the SWC/Big 8 merger. However, it's clear that OU is getting tired of Texas. Something in their partnership has to change in order for their mutual membership due remain in tact.
Something has to give here. The Big 12 didn't backfill with AAC/MWC last year because Fox/ESPN told them not to. However, when the inevitable defections occur, those left behind will have no choice but to fill with those same schools.

A full-membership for Gonzaga in the Big East is incredibly unlikely, IMO, due to travel. It cannot just be for basketball, either, which would make things easier. Membership would be for all non-football sports. Even if you add another west coast program, like St. Mary's, you are not only getting away from the footprint of the conference, you are also adding two very small arenas (compared to Big East standards), in two less-than-high media markets, with incredible added coast-to-coast travel. The optimal solution is a Gonzaga/St. Mary's scheduling alliance with the Big East schools (perhaps the two schools not in the Gavitt Games) on a yearly basis. Or, if you want a home/home with Gonzaga alone every year, the league can do that (which would allow all Big East schools to play Gonzaga within 5 years).

With regards to UConn, I think they are inevitably left out of the P5. I thought this during the last cycle, and I think it especially holds true for the upcoming cycle. We have the potential to save them if the AAC gets raided, and they are once again left behind again. When that happens, you offer #11 to UConn and then #12 to VCU, assuming they keep the string of success going. Those two would absolutely be enough to give us an increase in our next contract, and give us more cushion to separate us from the rest of the other top conferences.

[_lh]

Few points:

Notre Dame is not relinquishing independence because it does not and will not need to. They are the only team that carries an independent, lucrative, national TV contract, which runs for a very long time. Them being independent does not hinder them from making the CFP. With a yearly schedule that features 5 ACC opponents, Stanford, Navy, USC and a rotation involving Michigan, Michigan State and at least one other major P5 opponent (in recent years it's been Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, and Penn State, and in future years it will be Ohio State and Texas A&M), they have one of the best national schedules in college football. Why can they demand to remain independent? Because they can, and the P5/CFP allows them to. They are the most unique program in the country, and certain accommodations will always be made for Notre Dame.

With regards to the Big 12, one (or more) of the following unfathomable situations will occur: 1.) Texas will get rid of the LHN. 2.) Oklahoma/Kansas will leave behind OSU/KSU for a bigger/better conference. 3.) Texas and Oklahoma split up into different conferences. 4.) The Big 12 will backfill with AAC/MWC programs. One of these will inevitably occur. The question is who gets the shaft and is forced down a path that they don't want. Texas is adamant that the LHN isn't going anywhere - but its existence hinders the Big 12 and the other nine schools. Something has to give here. Oklahoma and Kansas are in the unique position of being in any major conference, due to academics, athletics and geography. However, they will not be in a position to bring along their little brothers. Something has to give here. Texas and Oklahoma have been incredibly successful due to their rivalry since the SWC/Big 8 merger. However, it's clear that OU is getting tired of Texas. Something in their partnership has to change in order for their mutual membership due remain in tact.
Something has to give here. The Big 12 didn't backfill with AAC/MWC last year because Fox/ESPN told them not to. However, when the inevitable defections occur, those left behind will have no choice but to fill with those same schools.

A full-membership for Gonzaga in the Big East is incredibly unlikely, IMO, due to travel. It cannot just be for basketball, either, which would make things easier. Membership would be for all non-football sports. Even if you add another west coast program, like St. Mary's, you are not only getting away from the footprint of the conference, you are also adding two very small arenas (compared to Big East standards), in two less-than-high media markets, with incredible added coast-to-coast travel. The optimal solution is a Gonzaga/St. Mary's scheduling alliance with the Big East schools (perhaps the two schools not in the Gavitt Games) on a yearly basis. Or, if you want a home/home with Gonzaga alone every year, the league can do that (which would allow all Big East schools to play Gonzaga within 5 years).

With regards to UConn, I think they are inevitably left out of the P5. I thought this during the last cycle, and I think it especially holds true for the upcoming cycle. We have the potential to save them if the AAC gets raided, and they are once again left behind again. When that happens, you offer #11 to UConn and then #12 to VCU, assuming they keep the string of success going. Those two would absolutely be enough to give us an increase in our next contract, and give us more cushion to separate us from the rest of the other top conferences.

I agree with all of this except for adding in VCU if and when UCONN is added. I'd rather stay at 11 for a time to see how it is working and if a 12th team has to be added for some reason, add SLU.

[Bill Marsh]

Few points:

Notre Dame is not relinquishing independence because it does not and will not need to. They are the only team that carries an independent, lucrative, national TV contract, which runs for a very long time. Them being independent does not hinder them from making the CFP. With a yearly schedule that features 5 ACC opponents, Stanford, Navy, USC and a rotation involving Michigan, Michigan State and at least one other major P5 opponent (in recent years it's been Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, and Penn State, and in future years it will be Ohio State and Texas A&M), they have one of the best national schedules in college football. Why can they demand to remain independent? Because they can, and the P5/CFP allows them to. They are the most unique program in the country, and certain accommodations will always be made for Notre Dame.

My comments about Notre Dame football joining the ACC were originally made in response to XUdash's post about a move to a 4 x 16 format. Under these conditions, there is little doubt that Notre Dame would have to move its football to a conference. Because of contractual commitments, this conference would be the ACC.

Without a 4 x 16 format, anything's possible, so I have no argument with any of your comments in this post.

With regards to the Big 12, one (or more) of the following unfathomable situations will occur: 1.) Texas will get rid of the LHN. 2.) Oklahoma/Kansas will leave behind OSU/KSU for a bigger/better conference. 3.) Texas and Oklahoma split up into different conferences. 4.) The Big 12 will backfill with AAC/MWC programs. One of these will inevitably occur. The question is who gets the shaft and is forced down a path that they don't want. Texas is adamant that the LHN isn't going anywhere - but its existence hinders the Big 12 and the other nine schools. Something has to give here. Oklahoma and Kansas are in the unique position of being in any major conference, due to academics, athletics and geography. However, they will not be in a position to bring along their little brothers. Something has to give here. Texas and Oklahoma have been incredibly successful due to their rivalry since the SWC/Big 8 merger. However, it's clear that OU is getting tired of Texas. Something in their partnership has to change in order for their mutual membership due remain in tact.
Something has to give here. The Big 12 didn't backfill with AAC/MWC last year because Fox/ESPN told them not to. However, when the inevitable defections occur, those left behind will have no choice but to fill with those same schools.

A full-membership for Gonzaga in the Big East is incredibly unlikely, IMO, due to travel. It cannot just be for basketball, either, which would make things easier. Membership would be for all non-football sports.

Travel would not be for all non-football sports. That's not the way it works. It would only be for a handful. This has been discussed on this board several times before.

Even if you add another west coast program, like St. Mary's, you are not only getting away from the footprint of the conference, you are also adding two very small arenas (compared to Big East standards), in two less-than-high media markets, with incredible added coast-to-coast travel. The optimal solution is a Gonzaga/St. Mary's scheduling alliance with the Big East schools (perhaps the two schools not in the Gavitt Games) on a yearly basis. Or, if you want a home/home with Gonzaga alone every year, the league can do that (which would allow all Big East schools to play Gonzaga within 5 years).

No to St Mary's. Gonzaga has access to a bigger arena, which would have to be a requirement if they were added. Gonzaga has achieved a stature that generates viewership beyond their immediate market. Moreover, they are not a commuter school which only has followers in their immediate metro area. Like all Big East schools they draw their student body regionally and they have alumni concentrations regionally - especially in Seattle. Home/home doesn't do anything for the Big East as a conference other than to guarantee a good OOC game here or there.

With regards to UConn, I think they are inevitably left out of the P5. I thought this during the last cycle, and I think it especially holds true for the upcoming cycle. We have the potential to save them if the AAC gets raided, and they are once again left behind again. When that happens, you offer #11 to UConn and then #12 to VCU, assuming they keep the string of success going. Those two would absolutely be enough to give us an increase in our next contract, and give us more cushion to separate us from the rest of the other top conferences.

Inevitably??? The ACC and Notre Dame thought that the need for ND to place its football in a conference is a realistic enough possibility that they wrote that contingency into their contract. If/when that happens, UConn is the logical choice as #16.

Even if UConn doesn't make it to the F5, they are still a football school and the Big East doesn't sponsor football. I don't see a marriage here unless things change drastically.

[_lh]

UCONN has only been DIA since 2002. If they can't get into a P5 or P4 conference, UCONN can't play a lower version of football? Seems silly to continue to throw bad money after bad money.