BE Games Mon 11/16 - 2g - Umbc-SJU, IUPUI-Marquette...

[Omaha1]

I meant low major schools when I said teams of that caliber. I wouldn't say Belmont is like Butler pre-A10 days. Thats a team who went to back to back national title games. Thats not Belmont.

Yeah, they aren't close. Butler will move past Texas in a few weeks for 17th in most weeks in the Top 25 the last 10 years, having moved past Marquette this week. Butler was typically in the Top 25 in the Horizon League, not just winning their league. Belmont is closer to something like Creighton in the MVC, or perhaps SIU before them. There's a big distinction between winning enough to make yourself stand-out in your league and enough to stand out nationally.

But is Belmont really any good? They got beat by Arizona State who had lost to Sacramento State. I'm worried about marquette more than St. John's right now to be honest.

[MUBoxer]

Belmont and North Florida who beat MU and Illinois are not "teams of that caliber" they're tournament teams last year that return pretty much everybody. They're head and shoulders above teams like wagner and umbc. Specifically Belmont who is at the level Butler was in the Horizon or Davidson pre A-10 etc. Now if you wanted to say Marquette struggled or nearly lost to a team of that caliber that's fair but belmont is much better than wagner or umbc

I meant low major schools when I said teams of that caliber. I wouldn't say Belmont is like Butler pre-A10 days. Thats a team who went to back to back national title games. Thats not Belmont.[/quote]


With all due respect to Butler's runs those were because of their coach. Yes Hayward and Mac were amazing players but no Stevens no run. I just meant in terms of low majors that are constantly in the NCAA tournament (Belmont's been in the tournament something like 7 of the last 10, and finished 1st in their conference 8/10 with the other two years being second). But your point is taken I just personally believe that some low majors (Davidson pre A10) are kind of in their own little distinction. It's like Gonzaga or Wichita state (Creighton fans will argue) nobody is going to call them a mid major because they're constantly at the top. Wagner or UMBC are just crappy teams.

[NJRedman]

Here's the thing with St John's.
If they go 6-12 in conference play to finish 8th.....(which is the record that the 8th place team has gotten both years)
they would need to go 11-2 OOC to finish 17-14 which would be NIT bubble...

Sorry but 16-15 just doesn't get teams in the NIT any more.

Loss to Vandy and Loss to Cuse who else is a definite loss? Wake isn't, USC East isn't, Fordham isn't. Who is? Also, 8th place could be 7-11.

[NJRedman]

Yeah, they aren't close. Butler will move past Texas in a few weeks for 17th in most weeks in the Top 25 the last 10 years, having moved past Marquette this week. Butler was typically in the Top 25 in the Horizon League, not just winning their league. Belmont is closer to something like Creighton in the MVC, or perhaps SIU before them. There's a big distinction between winning enough to make yourself stand-out in your league and enough to stand out nationally.

But is Belmont really any good? They got beat by Arizona State who had lost to Sacramento State. I'm worried about marquette more than St. John's right now to be honest.

Yeah, we are who people thought we were going to be and might be a little better than that.

[NovaBall]

St John's looked solid overall. They have talent but like Marquette, PC, and others, they're young. SJU committed 18 or so turnovers, but their defense was really good. Ton of blocks as a team. Generally, I really like that Mullin has them driving to the hoop. Once again, unlike last year, very few 18 foot jumpers, though Durand Johnson hit a couple of nice ones in the 2nd half.

The Johnnies should be able to beat Rutgers at home this week, but they will take their lumps this year. But they're not the complete disaster that I expected after seeing their score vs St Thomas Aquinas.

That blow out loss to STAC was the best thing that could have happened to us. These kids now don't take anyone for granted, not even lowly UMBC. I think making a post season tourny would be a great success for us even the CBI. The more games they get to play this year the better it will be for next year. Hopefully if things go well we could make the NIT and finish 8th in the league. That would be a good season for us.

St John's will be lucky to finish with a .500 record this year- and that's not close to NIT with the way the NIT is now.

Good thing stever is here to set everyone straight and not be impressed by the johnnies.



Johnnies are a young program and mullin's #1 priority must be installing good habits. I think he is doing that n

[MUBoxer]

But is Belmont really any good? They got beat by Arizona State who had lost to Sacramento State. I'm worried about marquette more than St. John's right now to be honest.

Well Belmont does have weird up and down play. If you go back a couple of years they took down UNC at the dean dome but then crapped the bed against South Dakota state. They're a very match up oriented team. I called from the start that Marquette would matchup very poorly with them and everybody got on my a$$. Looking at IUPUI they took an almost identical strategy Belmont did only that combs guy wanted to play hero too much and they shot themselves in the foot. We'll matchup well against LSU or anybody in the BE but these low teams that are just lights out from beyond the arc and senior laden will be the death of Marquette.

[Edrick]

With all due respect to Butler's runs those were because of their coach. Yes Hayward and Mac were amazing players but no Stevens no run.

Literally the year before Stevens was named Butler's head coach, they had a head coach named National COY -- http://www.nabc.org/sports/m-baskbl/spe ... 07aah.html

That's just silly. There's a lot of coaches that can take a preseason Top 10 team like Butler was in 2010 to a Final Four. 2011 was just weirdness, that happens sometimes. Weirdness isn't really linked to a coach either, probably more linked with Shelvin Mack becoming unstoppable for a few weeks (like the Pittsburgh Sweet 16 game)

[NovaBall]

Here's the thing with St John's.
If they go 6-12 in conference play to finish 8th.....(which is the record that the 8th place team has gotten both years)
they would need to go 11-2 OOC to finish 17-14 which would be NIT bubble...

Sorry but 16-15 just doesn't get teams in the NIT any more.

So you're saying that if the johnnies go 11-2 and finish conference play at 6-12 they could go to the NIT? Sounds good to me.

How about if they go 10-3 and conference play at 6-12, but pick up two wins at MSG in March? Would you allow them in the tourney with that resume?


Oh yeah, doesn't the nit play at MSG? Maybe if the johnnies are on the nit bubble they get a little benefit of the doubt?

[stever20]

Here's the thing with St John's.
If they go 6-12 in conference play to finish 8th.....(which is the record that the 8th place team has gotten both years)
they would need to go 11-2 OOC to finish 17-14 which would be NIT bubble...

Sorry but 16-15 just doesn't get teams in the NIT any more.

Loss to Vandy and Loss to Cuse who else is a definite loss? Wake isn't, USC East isn't, Fordham isn't. Who is? Also, 8th place could be 7-11.

You aren't winning all of those games though. Wake, UCLA/UNLV, Fordham, South Carolina. All aren't definite losses, but at least 1 in that group.

8th place 1st 2 years has been 6-12.

Also 17-14 is just to get on the NIT bubble.

[stever20]

Here's the thing with St John's.
If they go 6-12 in conference play to finish 8th.....(which is the record that the 8th place team has gotten both years)
they would need to go 11-2 OOC to finish 17-14 which would be NIT bubble...

Sorry but 16-15 just doesn't get teams in the NIT any more.

So you're saying that if the johnnies go 11-2 and finish conference play at 6-12 they could go to the NIT? Sounds good to me.

How about if they go 10-3 and conference play at 6-12, but pick up two wins at MSG in March? Would you allow them in the tourney with that resume?


Oh yeah, doesn't the nit play at MSG? Maybe if the johnnies are on the nit bubble they get a little benefit of the doubt?

Part of the NIT is that they don't have a set number of teams. It's 32 but then all the one bid conferences that have upsets in the conference tourney steal spots. So some years you have 12 or 13 teams steal bids. No they really don't get the benefit of the doubt because of MSG. It's a selection committee- on merit.

If they go 10-3 and 6-12 2 wins at MSG- they're still 18-16. I'd guess they'd be out.

Also at 17-14 with 11-2 and 6-12- they would probably have to win the 8/9 game to make the NIT- to finish at 18-15.