Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[cm5yz6]

Did I once say on any of my posts on this thread that the Big East should add VCU?

No.

Did I once say that you did?

No

Oh, so when you said "pro-VCU information", you weren't talking about information in support of their candidacy? Could've fooled me. Actually you did fool me.

So, what you're objecting to is a poster saying anything good about VCU???

As I said, you've got issues.

No, I was talking about information in support of their candidacy, but I never said that you said they should be added - as was your prior claim. Also, I never said I objected to anything, just stated a timing expectation on your inevitable VCU comments. No opinion, pro or against, was included.

[DeltaV]

The problem using Davidson as a comparison- of their 13 appearances in the NCAA tourney, 7 have been since 1986 where it's an auto bid only reason they got in the tourney(with 0 wins in those 7 times) . This year was their only at large spot ever, and 1 other time where they were a 10 seed. Also, using tournaments in the '60's is a little bit of a stretch I would say, which is where 2 of their 3 elite 8's were from.

There is no basketball logic in VCU not being in the Big East. If Richmond did what VCU has done, they would be in without a question.

I think the big question is, what kind of conference does the Big East want to be? Are we a basketball conference first, and all other things second? Or are we a conference of similar institutions overall?

Maybe VCU not being picked up when we formed two years ago is a sign that the Presidents, and conference leadership, want to be the latter (honestly, all I know of VCU outside of basketball I've probably heard on this board, so I don't know if it is a 'high caliber' academic institution). Fox would probably prefer the former, but who knows how much sway they really have. I think if we primarily care about basketball, schools like VCU and WSU will dominate the discussion. If the conference wants to be about the selective schools, though, I think we get Dayton and possibly a school like Davidson or SLU.

Either way, I think UConn would be welcomed back if they want and can park football, because they can fit both plans (and if they stay for 5 years and get picked up by a P5, so what? We fill their space with whoever of SLU/UD/Dav/VCU/WSU has matured as a program. We can think of UConn as a placeholder). And when Musk gets his hyperloop up and running, and the west coast is a short hop away, Gonzaga will be in as well.

[stever20]

It's just amazing how polarizing VCU is on here.

What will be interesting is if VCU goes out and does well with a new coach, the crutch that so many folks have used- that it was all just Shaka- would be totally and completely gone out the door. As if basketball has anything to do with it. Any one with any sense at all knows the only reason why VCU isn't in the Big East right now is the public issue. Period. Not a darn thing to do with basketball at all.

And lastly- what credentials did Creighton bring to the Big East? 3 sweet 16's when all you had to do was win 1 game? VCU had as many NCAA wins in 1 year that Creighton had from 1975 until Creighton got into the Big East. If you think pre '75 should mean something, Dayton should have gotten in then, they had 5 sweet 16's in that period, and actually made a national championship game. So what exactly are those serious credentials that Creighton brought to the Big East? Butler and Xavier- I'll totally give you- Butler with 2 title game appearances and X with all their NCAA tourney runs. But what are Creighton's credentials?

[muskienick]

In response to a previous post about VCUs past caching hires. The hire that the BE presidents and everyone else in the country will be looking at us who they hire next. If they get a guy who cannot win and they become a middle of the pack or worse A10 team then the luster of that FF and Smart run will certainly come off and open the door for another program to step up and into the conversation.

I believe that a single coaching hire is not a determining factor in whether or not a conference will seriously consider a school as a candidate for new membership. SLU struck gold with the hiring of Rick Majerus. It was a gold strike that was preceded by a rather long string of pyrite mines! Jim Crews did fine with Rick's players for 2 years, but plopped down to earth with a very poor record this past season.

VCU, like them or not, has a much better record of establishing an actual successful PROGRAM that has existed through coaching changes dating back to the early 1980's. Chances are, VCU will will do just fine with their next hire just like they have with their past five or six.

SLU has a wonderful arena (that they seldom filled even when Rick was at the top of his game there). They also had some fine years in a few recent seasons. The Billikens just have a serviceable PROGRAM.

[stever20]

The problem using Davidson as a comparison- of their 13 appearances in the NCAA tourney, 7 have been since 1986 where it's an auto bid only reason they got in the tourney(with 0 wins in those 7 times) . This year was their only at large spot ever, and 1 other time where they were a 10 seed. Also, using tournaments in the '60's is a little bit of a stretch I would say, which is where 2 of their 3 elite 8's were from.

There is no basketball logic in VCU not being in the Big East. If Richmond did what VCU has done, they would be in without a question.

I think the big question is, what kind of conference does the Big East want to be? Are we a basketball conference first, and all other things second? Or are we a conference of similar institutions overall?

Maybe VCU not being picked up when we formed two years ago is a sign that the Presidents, and conference leadership, want to be the latter (honestly, all I know of VCU outside of basketball I've probably heard on this board, so I don't know if it is a 'high caliber' academic institution). Fox would probably prefer the former, but who knows how much sway they really have. I think if we primarily care about basketball, schools like VCU and WSU will dominate the discussion. If the conference wants to be about the selective schools, though, I think we get Dayton and possibly a school like Davidson or SLU.

Either way, I think UConn would be welcomed back if they want and can park football, because they can fit both plans (and if they stay for 5 years and get picked up by a P5, so what? We fill their space with whoever of SLU/UD/Dav/VCU/WSU has matured as a program. We can think of UConn as a placeholder). And when Musk gets his hyperloop up and running, and the west coast is a short hop away, Gonzaga will be in as well.

Here's the point that I think Hoya was trying to make. If Richmond had right now been to the tourney 7 times in 9 years(at the point of expansion 5 times in 7 years), with a final 4 in there, would they be in the Big East right now? I think we all pretty much know what the answer to that question is. The problem that some folks have is that people on here want to act like there are basketball reasons why VCU isn't in the Big East. Nothing could be further from the truth. There's no problem in folks saying that VCU should be in the conference because of them being Public- not at all.. But it's disingenuous to say that VCU shouldn't be in because of basketball. VCU has done more the last 40 years than Creighton had, and fit much better geographically.

And I think if UConn came today, VCU would be right with them, as the public issue would be gone.

[handdownmandown]

Creighton is a like minded institution.

Which in a conversation of seven Catholic university presidents is the ace of spades when it comes to admission, at least as it applies to public institutions.

We didn't have to outshine VCU on the court, we had to beat SLU and Dayton. Why is that so hard to grasp? When people on here talk about basketball as if it is a deciding factor, I chuckle a little. Where is the evidence that the BE has ever given a public institution equal footing vis-à-vis private faith based ones? There is none, but as you point out in comparing CU to other public institutions in on-court success, there is plenty of evidence that 'like minded institutions' are favored to a large degree (or CU probably wouldn't have made the cut).

Adding a public will require a dramatic change of philosophy if you ask me. I'm going to have to see some evidence otherwise before I believe any public will gain membership.

[trephin]

Creighton's attendance and fan support had to be a big part of it's candidacy much the same way that helps Dayton be in the conversation.

IMO, even if VCU has immediate success, those who gave all the credit to Smart will still need to see what the new coach does with his own players.

[stever20]

Creighton is a like minded institution.

Which in a conversation of seven Catholic university presidents is the ace of spades when it comes to admission, at least as it applies to public institutions.

We didn't have to outshine VCU on the court, we had to beat SLU and Dayton. Why is that so hard to grasp? When people on here talk about basketball as if it is a deciding factor, I chuckle a little. Where is the evidence that the BE has ever given a public institution equal footing vis-à-vis private faith based ones? There is none, but as you point out in comparing CU to other public institutions in on-court success, there is plenty of evidence that 'like minded institutions' are favored to a large degree (or CU probably wouldn't have made the cut).

Adding a public will require a dramatic change of philosophy if you ask me. I'm going to have to see some evidence otherwise before I believe any public will gain membership.

I have NO problem with that at all. Just say it like you did- that it's the private/public thing. Don't insult my intelligence and say that it's because of what was done on the basketball court- because Creighton had not done anywhere near as much as VCU or Wichita had done when the conference was done.

[handdownmandown]

Dayton is in the conversation because it's Marianist first. Otherwise it would be automatically behind VCU due to on-court success (a narrow loss) and location (being that close to X is a tremendous drawback).

But since it IS a Catholic university, it's ahead of VCU.

[stever20]

Problem with A-10 is the TV money is not much better and travel will be much more expensive. Exposure will only be slightly better (A-10 is on nbcsn?). Wichita is also big in baseball and volleyball and that would kill those sports.

I think you are dead wrong on the TV money....

was looking at a MVC board from 2 years ago when the deal was done...
-- ESPN pays the Valley $190,000 a year for ESPNU (or other channels at their whim) content, and of course ESPN3 content. ESPN had exclusivity on this but this was negotiated away during the last round of contract talks. This number is lower than the previous contract ($200,000).
-- ESPN then charges the Valley $300,000 a year for production fees associated with broadcasting games on the ESPN networks.

That's right- the MVC pays 110k to get on ESPN.

So yeah, Wichita going to the A10 or AAC would be definitely worth it money wise....