(2) Sunday Big East Games 11/27/16

[Bluejay]

What is it that Butler, Xavier, and Creighton have that we don't? Is it the winning culture? Is it the scouting? Is it the fundamentals? Is it the coaching? Something is missing at St. John's.

Coaching is exactly what it is, and Seton Hall is in very much the same position as St. John's. They bring in plenty of talented, athletic recruits, and send them out to play an improv/street ball style offense and expect to win by sheer athleticism. Like one person here commented on a Seton Hall game over the weekend - it didn't look like they ran 1 set play all night. That's not something you'll ever see from Butler, Xavier, and Creighton. Throughout most of their histories, these schools didn't have the luxury of high major recruiting. In order to be successful, they needed to build systems that made the team greater than the sum of its parts. They won with excellent tactical and fundamental coaching, as well as some good old fashioned toughness. Now they're getting to put Big East quality rosters into these same systems and you're seeing the results - they're all in the top 10 and have the potential to be scary good for a long time.

You know what - this is a very solid post that makes some great points.

I am not a fan of Willard. I think he does more with less. I didn't see the post about not running one set play, but that is so very true. Seton Hall this year looks like they just roll out the balls and let the kids go - one can question if under their current style they even need a coach. I felt the same thing about St. Johns under Lavin. One other thing I'd add about Seton Hall this year is that they really need a three point marksman. It helps open up the floor and can be a huge momentum boost. Right now Seton hall just seems so easy to defend - put all five defenders in the paint and make them beat you from the outside.

[Hall2012]

Coaching is exactly what it is, and Seton Hall is in very much the same position as St. John's. They bring in plenty of talented, athletic recruits, and send them out to play an improv/street ball style offense and expect to win by sheer athleticism. Like one person here commented on a Seton Hall game over the weekend - it didn't look like they ran 1 set play all night. That's not something you'll ever see from Butler, Xavier, and Creighton. Throughout most of their histories, these schools didn't have the luxury of high major recruiting. In order to be successful, they needed to build systems that made the team greater than the sum of its parts. They won with excellent tactical and fundamental coaching, as well as some good old fashioned toughness. Now they're getting to put Big East quality rosters into these same systems and you're seeing the results - they're all in the top 10 and have the potential to be scary good for a long time.

You know what - this is a very solid post that makes some great points.

I am not a fan of Willard. I think he does more with less. I didn't see the post about not running one set play, but that is so very true. Seton Hall this year looks like they just roll out the balls and let the kids go - one can question if under their current style they even need a coach. I felt the same thing about St. Johns under Lavin. One other thing I'd add about Seton Hall this year is that they really need a three point marksman. It helps open up the floor and can be a huge momentum boost. Right now Seton hall just seems so easy to defend - put all five defenders in the paint and make them beat you from the outside.

I assume you meant to say Willard does less with more? And I agree with pretty much everything except that Seton Hall lacks 3pt shooting/is easy to defend. They actually have several players (Powell-36%, 43% before Stanford, Carrington-56%, Rodriguez-struggling early this year, but 39% last year) who shoot the three very well and a couple more (Singh, Soffer) who have a reputation for being 3pt specialists but haven't show it yet at SHU. Powell is that real 3pt marksman you mention, and even as a freshman I expect he'll show it as we get deeper into the season. The Stanford game was just a massive outlier where nobody could buy a basket. It was the first time this year Seton Hall failed to reach 75 points and they've scored 90+ 3 times, so I'd say the offense is fine - though frustratingly inconsistent at times. Shooting slumps are when teams need to run a few set plays for easy baskets- but it's when Seton Hall seems to revert to hero ball resulting in 5:23 assist : turnover ratio.

[Red Rooster]

Every new coach pretty much gets a guaranteed 5 year window. Be patient, Mullin will pull it together. The one thing you can't teach is the desire to win. That is what someone like Holtmann has and JT3 does not. Mullin has that desire and I believe he will get there eventually.

I wouldn't agree with that 100%. We definitely see coaches dismissed in year 3 or 4 enough to not say that every coach pretty much gets a guaranteed 5 years.. Just last year 2 p5 coaches were dismissed- Eddie Jordan and Trent Johnson in years 3 and 4 respectively.

I just don't see the blind faith that folks have that say that he will pull it together. He had no coaching experience prior to St John's. We've regularly seen guys try to coach that just can't.

I agree with stever here (Gulp!). Every, coach doesn't get a guaranteed 5 year window. Some may get it, but certainly not all. Especially, if it's fairly evident things aren't steadily improving or not improving at all.

I haven't given up on Mullin, and I'll give him to, at least, next season. There is some decent talent on the team, and even more coming in next season. So, personally, I'll afford him that opportunity. But, of course, I'd like to see improvement on the court and, most importantly, sideline throughout the rest of this season.

[Red Rooster]

I knew the Mullin hire was too good to be true. I will give Mullin one more year. If Zach Brown is eligible and plays (7'1 major center recruit) along with Clark and our team still has no real sign of massive improvement, then he has to go. You give him a hug, tell him you are the best player to ever play for us, thank him for trying, and part ways. So honestly we don't know yet, but I assume that if most were forced to bet their house they would bet that it won't work out (including myself based on what I've seen so far). You can kick and scream and say "but we are young man!" or "just be patient!". The truth is, our fanbase is so used to losing and mediocrity that we don't even have high standards. If we can't finish out this season going into next season on a promising note with clear improvement, then we need to get a rising star young coach.

Is this a serious post? What did you expect? Steve Lavin left that roster as barren as I've ever seen a Big East roster. Only 8% of the minutes in 2014-15 returned in 2015-16. He had to recruit a whole new team.

If you fire Chris Mullin two years into one of the biggest rebuilds in recent memory in the Big East, it would be one of the most shortsighted moves ever. How the hell can anyone judge Mullin? They have the 2nd-youngest team in the country. Mullin was never going to win anything until his 4th season here, unless he got extremely lucky.

Plus, what coach would ever want to go to St. John's if you're willing to fire a coach two years into a rebuild? If I'm an up-and-coming coach, and I see a program fire the biggest legend its team has ever produced just two years into his tenure, I would view that as a giant red flag, and I would view the job as toxic. St. John's hasn't won a tournament game in 16 years, I get that there is frustration in the fanbase, but none of that is Mullin's fault. He inherited an utter disaster.

You really need to recalibrate you short-term expectations. I've been as critical of St. John's and Mullin as everyone, mostly because people were crowning him as an amazing recruiter because he was involved with Thon Maker and Rawle Alkins. Mullin hasn't proven anything yet. I have no idea how good of a coach he is. Nobody does - it's impossible with this roster.

KenPom has St. John's as the #99 team in the nation. Given how young the roster is, it's impressive that they've gone from 211 to 99 in a year. And even with the improved rating, they're still expected to go 5-13 in the Big East, and they're only favored in the two DePaul games. This league isn't kind to rebuilding teams.

I'm a Brooklyn Nets fan. I've already resigned myself to the team being garbage for the foreseeable future. St. John's won't have to wait as long to compete as the Nets will, but you need to take his early results with a grain of salt.

I'm not trying to create trouble, but you have to excuse him, as his emotions run rampant. It's reminiscent of a high school teenage girl.

[DudeAnon]

Every new coach pretty much gets a guaranteed 5 year window. Be patient, Mullin will pull it together. The one thing you can't teach is the desire to win. That is what someone like Holtmann has and JT3 does not. Mullin has that desire and I believe he will get there eventually.

I wouldn't agree with that 100%. We definitely see coaches dismissed in year 3 or 4 enough to not say that every coach pretty much gets a guaranteed 5 years.. Just last year 2 p5 coaches were dismissed- Eddie Jordan and Trent Johnson in years 3 and 4 respectively.

I just don't see the blind faith that folks have that say that he will pull it together. He had no coaching experience prior to St John's. We've regularly seen guys try to coach that just can't.

I agree with stever here (Gulp!). Every, coach doesn't get a guaranteed 5 year window. Some may get it, but certainly not all. Especially, if it's fairly evident things aren't steadily improving or not improving at all.

I haven't given up on Mullin, and I'll give him to, at least, next season. There is some decent talent on the team, and even more coming in next season. So, personally, I'll afford him that opportunity. But, of course, I'd like to see improvement on the court and, most importantly, sideline throughout the rest of this season.

Do either of you really believe SJU would axe mullin before 5 years?

[Red Rooster]

Do either of you really believe SJU would axe mullin before 5 years?

Actually, I think they would. Remember, they have a new AD, and he has no ties to Mullin.

[stever20]

Do either of you really believe SJU would axe mullin before 5 years?

Yeah I definitely think they would. And moreso, if things didn't turn around quickly, the legend will leave before it got that far.... A good comp IMO is Clyde Drexler. He went to Houston and after 2 years was like this is enough. If they have another single digit win season(which is definitely on the table now)- I could easily see Mullin doing the same thing.

[Westbrook#36]

Mullin gets thru next year, no matter what. You just can't fire someone before 3 years in a complete rebuild, like it or not. To do otherwise raises some serious red flags. Grow pains can be(and usually are) tough. This is not an endorsement of Mullin in any way, he just deserves some time to see what he is all about.


P.S. not to rub it in, but remember that (poll)thread from last pre-season about BE coaches and how hot their seat was???

[stever20]

Mullin gets thru next year, no matter what. You just can't fire someone before 3 years in a complete rebuild, like it or not. To do otherwise raises some serious red flags. Grow pains can be(and usually are) tough. This is not an endorsement of Mullin in any way, he just deserves some time to see what he is all about.


P.S. not to rub it in, but remember that (poll)thread from last pre-season about BE coaches and how hot their seat was???

That I agree with. But if St John's isn't I'd say at least .500 after next year, it's going to be real hard for them to keep him.

And like I've said in other posts(yet to be approved)- odds are definitely more than zero that Mullin leaves himself.

1 thing on a bit of a tangent, the struggles of Mullin may eliminate any chance of Ewing coming back to coach Georgetown.

[MackNova]

Only way Mullin leaves after this year is if he decides to leave.

I'm far from sold on his hire (and quite frankly, I was always pessimistic about it). But if you're going to hire him when your team has zero talent base, you can't fire him during his 2nd season. This season has a lot more talent than last year, but it's very young. Johnson, Mvouika and those guys weren't great, but they had been around a bit. This year, it's almost all young guys. There were always going to be at least two bad years when Mullin was hired, unless he was a miracle worker. This is the 2nd year of that. Who knows if it works out in the long term, but it's too early to even consider cutting bait.