Why Not 14?

[MUBoxer]

Just convince ND and BC to join the Big East, they get to be independent in Football, have a brand to play each other under and if they want they'd have a couple guaranteed exhibition wins against "D1" Georgetown and Butler.

[GoldenWarrior11]

All I was saying is that Dayton as of now is closer to DePaul than Nova/Georgetown. They are not a big time addition like a Gonzaga or UConn would be.

For basically all teams we want 1. a strong/new market and 2. basketball success. Dayton IMO doesn't offer enough in either regard. They need to focus on making #2 a priority for now.

I'll push back a little bit here.

DePaul, while showing signs of improvement and life, is still averaging (officially) under 4k per home game thus far. DePaul had significant attendance problems last year in its first year at Wintrust. As with an expansion candidate, for any conference, a member school still needs to provide value to the league if they are down in the strongest revenue sports (football/basketball). Rutgers, for example, provides access to the B1G in New Jersey as well as the NYC-area, for recruiting and viewership purposes - despite being awful in football and weak in men's basketball. DePaul, arguably the weakest men's basketball program in the Big East, still provides value to the league in terms of Olympic sports, its Chicago-based market, and its strong stretch in men's basketball from the late 70's-early 90's.

Now, using Dayton as an example, yes - they do not have the national brand of a UConn or a Georgetown or a Villanova. However, they have one of the strongest fan bases in the country. Even in down years, they average over 10k per home game. In addition, they travel incredibly well, going to road games and making a strong presence at the A10 Tournament in Brooklyn. As a Catholic school, and strong academic institution, they are a clear peer to our current membership. Obviously, you/we/Presidents/Fox can debate all day about whether or not they are an overlap with the Cincinnati (Xavier), and/or whether or not Xavier would support their hypothetical inclusion into the league. There are strong arguments for both sides of that coin.

However, I do think that Big East fans need to adjust their lens at potential expansion candidates from whether or not they are a national elite basketball program (UConn/Gonzaga) towards whether or not a potential candidate could provide value to the league's membership - both in the near-term and long-term. As a counterpoint, Creighton had very little postseason success when they were invited into the Big East - but they had one of the best and strongest fan bases in the country (as well as a like-minded Catholic institution); they, along with Butler and Xavier, were GRAND SLAM additions. All three have immensely benefited from the Big East brand, as well as associating itself with the other members.

The realignment cycle of 2011-2013 was clearly driven by cable and media markets. It's why the B1G grabbed Rutgers and Maryland, it's why the SEC went after A&M (Texas) and Missouri, and it's why the ACC went after Syracuse (New York) and Pittsburgh. With the slow, but steady, death to cable, and the rise in streaming and content delivery, it's no longer about what cities you have access to, but rather how much content you can provide to passionate and interested fans. From what Saint Louis has shown this year, as well as Dayton has repeatedly shown for a long time, is that they both have strong fan bases that could carry the middle of our league in viewership, attendance and interest. Both schools would be clearly wedged right into the middle of our league in terms of enrollment and alumni, and their (theoretical) inclusion would strengthen the middle of our conference, as well as providing more content, and getting an additional two games for our conference tournament at MSG.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Just convince ND and BC to join the Big East, they get to be independent in Football, have a brand to play each other under and if they want they'd have a couple guaranteed exhibition wins against "D1" Georgetown and Butler.

With Notre Dame advancing to the playoff, it proves that there is a path for FBS independents to play for a national championship game. For P5 members however, leaving a power conference, they would be foregoing the $30-$40-$50 million annually, which is completely realistic. However, for certain other G5 programs, I wonder if they could negotiate their own deal, pending their market, they would pursue independence as well. They would need their own bowl tie-ins, however. A lot of hurdles for a situation like that to materialize.

[adoraz]

All I was saying is that Dayton as of now is closer to DePaul than Nova/Georgetown. They are not a big time addition like a Gonzaga or UConn would be.

For basically all teams we want 1. a strong/new market and 2. basketball success. Dayton IMO doesn't offer enough in either regard. They need to focus on making #2 a priority for now.

I'll push back a little bit here.

DePaul, while showing signs of improvement and life, is still averaging (officially) under 4k per home game thus far. DePaul had significant attendance problems last year in its first year at Wintrust. As with an expansion candidate, for any conference, a member school still needs to provide value to the league if they are down in the strongest revenue sports (football/basketball). Rutgers, for example, provides access to the B1G in New Jersey as well as the NYC-area, for recruiting and viewership purposes - despite being awful in football and weak in men's basketball. DePaul, arguably the weakest men's basketball program in the Big East, still provides value to the league in terms of Olympic sports, its Chicago-based market, and its strong stretch in men's basketball from the late 70's-early 90's.

Now, using Dayton as an example, yes - they do not have the national brand of a UConn or a Georgetown or a Villanova. However, they have one of the strongest fan bases in the country. Even in down years, they average over 10k per home game. In addition, they travel incredibly well, going to road games and making a strong presence at the A10 Tournament in Brooklyn. As a Catholic school, and strong academic institution, they are a clear peer to our current membership. Obviously, you/we/Presidents/Fox can debate all day about whether or not they are an overlap with the Cincinnati (Xavier), and/or whether or not Xavier would support their hypothetical inclusion into the league. There are strong arguments for both sides of that coin.

However, I do think that Big East fans need to adjust their lens at potential expansion candidates from whether or not they are a national elite basketball program (UConn/Gonzaga) towards whether or not a potential candidate could provide value to the league's membership - both in the near-term and long-term. As a counterpoint, Creighton had very little postseason success when they were invited into the Big East - but they had one of the best and strongest fan bases in the country (as well as a like-minded Catholic institution); they, along with Butler and Xavier, were GRAND SLAM additions. All three have immensely benefited from the Big East brand, as well as associating itself with the other members.

The realignment cycle of 2011-2013 was clearly driven by cable and media markets. It's why the B1G grabbed Rutgers and Maryland, it's why the SEC went after A&M (Texas) and Missouri, and it's why the ACC went after Syracuse (New York) and Pittsburgh. With the slow, but steady, death to cable, and the rise in streaming and content delivery, it's no longer about what cities you have access to, but rather how much content you can provide to passionate and interested fans. From what Saint Louis has shown this year, as well as Dayton has repeatedly shown for a long time, is that they both have strong fan bases that could carry the middle of our league in viewership, attendance and interest. Both schools would be clearly wedged right into the middle of our league in terms of enrollment and alumni, and their (theoretical) inclusion would strengthen the middle of our conference, as well as providing more content, and getting an additional two games for our conference tournament at MSG.

Fair points. I'm not necessarily against Dayton joining in the future, I just think in their current state they shouldn't be added. If they make the Tournament a few years in a row? Sure, then start to reconsider.

As far as I know, nobody is pushing us to expand (especially with the Big XII series). I much rather stay at 10 until either A. we really need to expand or B. an excellent candidate emerges. There are plenty of benefits to staying at 10, such as higher odds for us all to win the BET or regular season. Old Big East was way too bloated.

One thing is for certain- teams like Dayton and St. Louis have gotten a lot of push back. From what I remember, Xavier/Creighton/Butler were all welcomed with open arms. MU I'm sure was a universally praised addition at the time (at least by basketball schools). Why should now be any different? We are in a stronger position now than we were 6 years ago.

[MUBoxer]

Just convince ND and BC to join the Big East, they get to be independent in Football, have a brand to play each other under and if they want they'd have a couple guaranteed exhibition wins against "D1" Georgetown and Butler.

With Notre Dame advancing to the playoff, it proves that there is a path for FBS independents to play for a national championship game. For P5 members however, leaving a power conference, they would be foregoing the $30-$40-$50 million annually, which is completely realistic. However, for certain other G5 programs, I wonder if they could negotiate their own deal, pending their market, they would pursue independence as well. They would need their own bowl tie-ins, however. A lot of hurdles for a situation like that to materialize.

it was sarcasm

[scoscox]

Obviously, you/we/Presidents/Fox can debate all day about whether or not they are an overlap with the Cincinnati (Xavier), and/or whether or not Xavier would support their hypothetical inclusion into the league. There are strong arguments for both sides of that coin.

As a counterpoint, Creighton had very little postseason success when they were invited into the Big East

I don't think there's any doubt that Xavier would oppose their admission.

Creighton's postseason futility is a little overblown. They had a few sweet sixteens, an elite eight, and 17 ncaa tournament appearances before the Big East move. They have 5 more tournament appearances than Butler. They haven't had many deep runs, but very respectable

[GumbyDamnit!]

Just my opinion, but...

Additions that i would support immediately as our 11th team:
- Gonzaga.
- UConn, if they drop football.
- Notre Dame, if they notice the BE is a top conference, and they want to return to their traditional northern rivals.

Addition i could support if forced to go to 11 teams right now, if the Zags, UConn and the Irish are not possible:
- Dayton.

All other teams right now, to me, would be underwhelming. I could elaborate more, but would just be repeating the same points from past discussions.

Yep, agreed. We are a power league and need to act like one. Absolutely no teams that aren't big time should be added.

BJack and Adoraz...quality posters who are passionate about BE hoops... but I will respectfully disagree with you both in this regard. When HLOH started and we were all here just speculating on who would get an invite and who wouldn't there were a lot of old time BE fans openly bad-mouthing Creighton. I recall a lot of: "after Doug McBuckets leaves, they'll be another mid major..." and "wait until they finally face the grind of real competition." Well, how'd that work out? In hindsight the Jays were a GREAT addition to the league. Great support, great commitment, positioned for long term success. If SLU administration made hoops a high priority is there any reason to expect that they'd NOT be successful? VCU brings us Richmond. Yawn. Dayton brings Dayton? Really? X is already the premier hoops-only school in OH. Do we really need 2? St. Joe's? Fordham? Nope. We've got Philly and NY markets already. But St. Louis... that's a pretty solid media market that isn't competing with the NBA.

No pro hoops (hmmm, does Omaha have an NBA team?), no NFL (hmmm, sounds a little like Omaha) but a really nice market size. The BE was built on private schools in or near metro cities. NYC, DC, Philly, Prov/Boston, Chicago, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Cinci. That's the blueprint.

Selfishly I miss some of the old rivalries so UConn has always been attractive to me. But even they aren't as attractive long-term as adding someone in a larger market.
Dayton? Richmond? No thanks. St. Louis? I bet Fox likey St. Louis a whole lot more than the others.

[DudeAnon]

Obviously, you/we/Presidents/Fox can debate all day about whether or not they are an overlap with the Cincinnati (Xavier), and/or whether or not Xavier would support their hypothetical inclusion into the league. There are strong arguments for both sides of that coin.

As a counterpoint, Creighton had very little postseason success when they were invited into the Big East

I don't think there's any doubt that Xavier would oppose their admission.

Creighton's postseason futility is a little overblown. They had a few sweet sixteens, an elite eight, and 17 ncaa tournament appearances before the Big East move. They have 5 more tournament appearances than Butler. They haven't had many deep runs, but very respectable

I gotta call foul on that one. Creighton was a great add, but their tournament foibles are very real. Their last elite eight was in 1941 and their last Sweet 16 was in 1974. Both of those were before the tournament expanded to 64 teams.

[adoraz]

Just my opinion, but...

Additions that i would support immediately as our 11th team:
- Gonzaga.
- UConn, if they drop football.
- Notre Dame, if they notice the BE is a top conference, and they want to return to their traditional northern rivals.

Addition i could support if forced to go to 11 teams right now, if the Zags, UConn and the Irish are not possible:
- Dayton.

All other teams right now, to me, would be underwhelming. I could elaborate more, but would just be repeating the same points from past discussions.

Yep, agreed. We are a power league and need to act like one. Absolutely no teams that aren't big time should be added.

BJack and Adoraz...quality posters who are passionate about BE hoops... but I will respectfully disagree with you both in this regard. When HLOH started and we were all here just speculating on who would get an invite and who wouldn't there were a lot of old time BE fans openly bad-mouthing Creighton. I recall a lot of: "after Doug McBuckets leaves, they'll be another mid major..." and "wait until they finally face the grind of real competition." Well, how'd that work out? In hindsight the Jays were a GREAT addition to the league. Great support, great commitment, positioned for long term success. If SLU administration made hoops a high priority is there any reason to expect that they'd NOT be successful? VCU brings us Richmond. Yawn. Dayton brings Dayton? Really? X is already the premier hoops-only school in OH. Do we really need 2? St. Joe's? Fordham? Nope. We've got Philly and NY markets already. But St. Louis... that's a pretty solid media market that isn't competing with the NBA.

No pro hoops (hmmm, does Omaha have an NBA team?), no NFL (hmmm, sounds a little like Omaha) but a really nice market size. The BE was built on private schools in or near metro cities. NYC, DC, Philly, Prov/Boston, Chicago, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Cinci. That's the blueprint.

Selfishly I miss some of the old rivalries so UConn has always been attractive to me. But even they aren't as attractive long-term as adding someone in a larger market.
Dayton? Richmond? No thanks. St. Louis? I bet Fox likey St. Louis a whole lot more than the others.

I agree with you that St. Louis is the most likely expansion candidate, I just don't think it's likely they will be added anytime soon. I also don't see them being added until they commit to basketball and show some consistency.

To be honest I don't remember much push back for Creighton. I'm sure there was some, but I doubt to the same extent as people are pushing back against Dayton/St. Louis/etc now. I could certainly see Creighton being a lot more controversial at the time than Xavier.

Regardless, there is one major difference. Back in 2013 we absolutely needed a 10th team. We couldn't be just a 9 team league. There was a lot of debate between Creighton and... the exact same candidates we're discussing now (Dayton, St. Louis, VCU).

Fox needed inventory back then. St. Louis was also a better team back then. I feel if they were that strong a candidate they'd already be in.

[prebilliken]

I agree with you that St. Louis is the most likely expansion candidate, I just don't think it's likely they will be added anytime soon. I also don't see them being added until they commit to basketball and show some consistency.

To be honest I don't remember much push back for Creighton. I'm sure there was some, but I doubt to the same extent as people are pushing back against Dayton/St. Louis/etc now. I could certainly see Creighton being a lot more controversial at the time than Xavier.

Regardless, there is one major difference. Back in 2013 we absolutely needed a 10th team. We couldn't be just a 9 team league. There was a lot of debate between Creighton and... the exact same candidates we're discussing now (Dayton, St. Louis, VCU).

Fox needed inventory back then. St. Louis was also a better team back then. I feel if they were that strong a candidate they'd already be in.

We'll never truly know how conversations for the final team (if it was between SLU and Creighton) truly played out. I have a lot of booster connections at SLU who claim that SLU administration shot their chance in the foot, that they dragged their feet for too long and attempted to call Xavier and Butler's bluff to leave the A10, I've been told that Creighton "out-politiced" us to get in, it very likely is a combination of some and/or none of these things. The fact of the matter now, is that SLU stands with VCU and Dayton as an exception to the rest of the A10 in terms of schools that could afford player stipends if that day comes, and they know that they need to surround themselves with peers who agree with that mentality and willingness to foot the bill for college athletics.

The one thing I'll push back on to sentiments on this board, is this feeling of a lack of "commitment" to a winning basketball program: SLU built an on campus arena in 2008, an asset only two Big East schools have, four if you include Nova and SJU with how they split games, they upgraded that arena in 2018 with new video boards and state of the art locker rooms, they pay their Men's coach over $1M, they've recently capped off their bicentennial year with their largest fundraising campaign ever, including funds towards athletics. Their commitment to winning basketball is there, we all know it is more difficult to string that together in wins on the court, no one really called Crews would be as bad as he was.

Institutionally there is really no argument about SLU as a fit for the league. A Jesuit Catholic school that bridges a geographic gap for the league. They would be perfect natural rivals against Creighton, Marquette, Xavier, DePaul and Butler, and actually have a ton of history vs. Butler and Xavier. Its a great school, it would be fourth in the conference in USNWR "National University" rankings and would be second in the conference in terms of total endowment behind only Georgetown. They have gorgeous facilitates, a solid TV market, and a nationally expansive alumni base with huge Alumni numbers in league cities of New York and Chicago, meaning well attended Big East tournament games at MSG.