Orlando Classic (Xavier) Bracket Set

[XtoDC]

Xavier hasn't done anything to keep Dayton out of the Big East at this point in time, I don't know why Xavier blocking them gets brought up. When Xavier was invited there was no way they were adding any stipulations to jeopardize the invite like that Dayton had to come with them or that Xavier wouldn't accept if Dayton was also invited. Up to this point in time the Big East has not tried to expand at all so there has been no reason for Xavier to even give an opinion on whether they would welcome or block Dayton. Everything else that has been said is conspiracy theory and message board fodder without much basis in reality.

[D West]

Xavier hasn't done anything to keep Dayton out of the Big East at this point in time, I don't know why Xavier blocking them gets brought up. When Xavier was invited there was no way they were adding any stipulations to jeopardize the invite like that Dayton had to come with them or that Xavier wouldn't accept if Dayton was also invited. Up to this point in time the Big East has not tried to expand at all so there has been no reason for Xavier to even give an opinion on whether they would welcome or block Dayton. Everything else that has been said is conspiracy theory and message board fodder without much basis in reality.

And adding George Washington, St. Joe's, Fordham and maybe Loyola of Chicago would all be welcomed by the current members of the Big East. Don't be silly.

X should be against a neighbor joining the league. Not selfish, just smart. It's a perfect example of why UC will NEVER be in the Big Ten. Tosu won't allow it. There are politics and MONEY in play in each of these decisions IMO.

[murphy]

Xavier not wanting to play UD extends beyond the basketball court. The two schools are Catholic institutions in southwestern Ohio with similar identities, recruiting similar student populations in what is becoming a tighter market for private schools. Xavier wants to use the Big East not just as a basketball recruiting tool but also as a general recruiting tool, one that can establish it as more "big-time" than Dayton (I mean in perception, not in reality, as both are good but not great universities). This idea of separation is a major part of the administration's motivation to not have Dayton in the conference but it also probably contributes to why they don't want to play them (or at minimum, don't really care to). In a way, playing Dayton puts the two schools on a similar level of comparison, because so much else about the schools is similar. The analogy to flagship state institutions vs. regional state institutions is off the mark, as one is clearly above the other in the pecking order in that matchup. Two independent private universities who have played sports against each other for the equivalent of the average American life expectancy and who draw students of similar caliber from the same high schools don't appear as separated, even if one holds the edge recently (at least in basketball). Added to that, Mack probably really doesn't like Dayton and doesn't care to have anything to do with them. If the adminstration wanted the game to happen, they would override him, but they either don't want it either or don't feel strongly in favor of it for the reasons listed above.

Now I would still like to play the game. I'm not heartbroken that we don't, and I understand the administration and Mack's motives, but it would be cool to see again.

good post, not sure what the comment about flagship institutions relates to, however note the following

UD largest private institution in Ohio by a long shot, undergrad population 8529, acceptance rate 59%, ranked at 108 NATIONAL UNIVERSITIES
XU - undergrad population 4633, acceptance rate 73%, ranked at #6 REGIONAL UNIVERSITIES

[XUFan09]

Yeah, they are different classifications because they offer different things, making them difficult to compare. Dayton has a law school and a number of graduate programs, including multiple doctoral programs. Xavier has a few graduate programs but is dominated by the undergraduate level. That's why U.S. News and World Report does multiple classifications because of those differences (even though in underlying identity Xavier and Dayton are very similar).

[Schickrateez]

As has been mentioned before, Xavier has not even had an opportunity to block Dayton from the Big East. Now, whether or not they would given the opportunity, I don't know. I do agree that Xavier has more incentive to block UD than to promote them, but that's from our (as fans) point of view. People forget that Dayton left Xavier behind in the past. Xavier moved into the A-10 and Dayton's conference fell apart. Even Dayton fans will admit that Xavier was instrumental in getting Dayton into the A-10, so the only reference we have is that. In the past, Xavier helped Dayton join them in a conference rather than move to lock them out. Obviously, the Big East is a different animal than the A-10 though, so who knows. I guess, it comes down to whether Xavier owes Dayton anything? Given the history I just laid out, I would say Xavier has done their part to help UD (even after UD left them). I personally (as a Xavier fan) am not against UD joining the Big East, I just happen to be against the Big East expanding (at this time). The Big East is trying to do something different, in that it's trying (succeeding in my book) to be a major conference that is basketball only. The time may come where it makes sense to expand, or that they need to expand. Than again, that time may never come. Lets see how it plays out, and trust all members and leaders to do what's best for the conference if/when the time comes.

[anXUfan]

As has been mentioned before, Xavier has not even had an opportunity to block Dayton from the Big East. Now, whether or not they would given the opportunity, I don't know. I do agree that Xavier has more incentive to block UD than to promote them, but that's from our (as fans) point of view. People forget that Dayton left Xavier behind in the past. Xavier moved into the A-10 and Dayton's conference fell apart. Even Dayton fans will admit that Xavier was instrumental in getting Dayton into the A-10, so the only reference we have is that. In the past, Xavier helped Dayton join them in a conference rather than move to lock them out. Obviously, the Big East is a different animal than the A-10 though, so who knows. I guess, it comes down to whether Xavier owes Dayton anything? Given the history I just laid out, I would say Xavier has done their part to help UD (even after UD left them). I personally (as a Xavier fan) am not against UD joining the Big East, I just happen to be against the Big East expanding (at this time). The Big East is trying to do something different, in that it's trying (succeeding in my book) to be a major conference that is basketball only. The time may come where it makes sense to expand, or that they need to expand. Than again, that time may never come. Lets see how it plays out, and trust all members and leaders to do what's best for the conference if/when the time comes.

Couldn't agree more.

[David HD]

Xavier not wanting to play UD extends beyond the basketball court. The two schools are Catholic institutions in southwestern Ohio with similar identities, recruiting similar student populations in what is becoming a tighter market for private schools. Xavier wants to use the Big East not just as a basketball recruiting tool but also as a general recruiting tool, one that can establish it as more "big-time" than Dayton (I mean in perception, not in reality, as both are good but not great universities). This idea of separation is a major part of the administration's motivation to not have Dayton in the conference but it also probably contributes to why they don't want to play them (or at minimum, don't really care to). In a way, playing Dayton puts the two schools on a similar level of comparison, because so much else about the schools is similar. The analogy to flagship state institutions vs. regional state institutions is off the mark, as one is clearly above the other in the pecking order in that matchup. Two independent private universities who have played sports against each other for the equivalent of the average American life expectancy and who draw students of similar caliber from the same high schools don't appear as separated, even if one holds the edge recently (at least in basketball). Added to that, Mack probably really doesn't like Dayton and doesn't care to have anything to do with them. If the adminstration wanted the game to happen, they would override him, but they either don't want it either or don't feel strongly in favor of it for the reasons listed above.

Now I would still like to play the game. I'm not heartbroken that we don't, and I understand the administration and Mack's motives, but it would be cool to see again.

I really don't think it matters. Yes, the two schools are both Catholic and are neighbors, but they are of different classifications and neither are anywhere close to a 100% acceptance rate. So, if they suddenly decided they wanted to grow their enrollment like a lot of the public schools in the Sun Belt, CUSA, and MAC are wanting to do, all they'd have to do is enroll more students. There are more people who want to be at both of them than what are let in.

I also can't think of an example where whether or not playing a football or basketball series played any sort of role in making one school more "established" than the other. It just isn't a factor in the grand scheme of things. Athletics energizes the students, alumni, and fan base, but most of the rest of the world is unaware what teams a school does or does not play, and for what reasons. TCU and SMU play. Belmont and Lipscomb play. Baylor and SMU play somewhat regularly (I know one's Methodist and the other Baptist, but I still think they attract a similar student demographic). A lot of the Ivys and Patriot League schools play, and they attract similar demographics. Notre Dame used to play DePaul and Marquette all the time, even when those were CUSA schools if I recall correctly. They don't now. I don't think Notre Dame's "establishment" as an institution has changed any. I don't think DePaul's and Marquette's have either. It just doesn't matter. I'm not saying you're wrong about that being Xavier's reasoning. Truthfully I have no idea and was just guessing it had to do with the friendships of the coaches. I'm saying that if that is the reason then it's kind of a crazy reason.

[DudeAnon]

I honestly hope Xavier never plays Dayton again.

1) We already have a rival. UC and X will go up and down but we always play each other. Dayton has that with Wright State.
2) They are no longer equals. X improved for 30 years to earn the right to the Big East. Dayton was satisfied with mediocrity for the entirety of that time.
3) We are too similar. People can pick their own stats, but UD and X are very much equal in academic prestige and ideology. X is lacking in some areas (engineering, tech) and UD is larger but they have a lower bar for acceptance (personally know someone with a sub 3.0 GPA and 23 ACT that got in.) and much of their appeal is basically sponsored underage drinking in the "ghetto."
4) People talk about Conference Expansion like its a band-aid. If GW makes the final four is Georgetown going to invite them? Butler, Creighton and Xavier invested millions of dollars and countless hours over 20+ years building up their basketball programs to be what they are. We shouldn't reward teams for having a good 2 year stint.
5) The heckling of Christi Mack and the behavior at the First Four was the last straw. It burned any bridges that may have remained.
Dayton should be happy, the rivalry has worked against them for 30 years and they won more NCAA games in 2 years without the rivalry than 30 years prior.

Also, not to be grim. But Dayton's fanbase is much older than most. They are the ones that hate Xavier the most. Because they remember Dayton in its glory days and saw their southern brother surpass them. Dayton needs to cater to its younger fanbase who probably never enjoyed the lopsided rivalry and much prefers having their own identity.

20 years from now maybe Dayton will be better than Xavier, but they will have to earn it on their own, same as Xavier has done.

[Schickrateez]

"5) The heckling of Christi Mack and the behavior at the First Four was the last straw. It burned any bridges that may have remained.
Dayton should be happy, the rivalry has worked against them for 30 years and they won more NCAA games in 2 years without the rivalry than 30 years prior."

I don't have much of a problem with the "first four incident" it was a couple college kids with nothing better to do. In the end, it didn't hurt anything or anyone, and could probably be chalked up to harmless fun. I hear talk of the time X won the A-10 tournament at Dayton, and our fans are rumored to have rushed the court, and stomped/spit on their logo. Point being, both sides have tales like this of how terrible the other teams fan base it. The incident involving Christ Mack, I agree it was totally classless and unacceptable, but a lot of UD's fan base has said the same as well. For the most part, their fan base, like ours, is mostly good people but there are always a few who spoil the bunch. As for playing them or not, I have no problem with you not wanting to ever play them again. You're not the only one who feels that way, and you have every right to think like that. Dayton has a solid program. They have underachieved for a long time, but at present their needle is pointing up. I agree that admission to the Big East should be based on much more than just a good 2-3 more stretch, but that has already been argued by both sides endlessly.

[hoopstar]

Dayton getting into the Big EAST will be based on money. If Fox deems Dayton will enhance the conference and make all the schools more money they will be strongly considered. There will be a new wave of realignment, with that UC will move to a larger football conference and the rivalry with X will diminish in Basketball over time. Christie Mack returned to a standing ovation at the UD Arena two years ago as she was inducted into the schools Hall of Fame. That is a non factor in any decision to add Dayton. All about Money, Dayton fits the model and with its recent success has put itself in play when it opens up.