Big East in Tourney

[scoscox]

Have to agree with Gumby. Don't blow it out of proportion. Big East is very good and only going to be better next season when the Creighton's, Marquette's, St. John's and Georgetown's come back with a vengeance. Anyone who actually follows college basketball would never say that the Big East is garbage outside of Nova unless they have some incredibly high quality garbage. The SEC was a joke this year and the Big 12 has been less impressive in the tournament along with the Pac-12 and the Big Ten. We're not alone in our tournament struggles. Obviously the ACC has been extremely good, but they're also built like the Old Big East at this point.

[gtmoBlue]

SJHooper, others.

You guys have been in living in the world of Majors - most of your lives. You obviously never read the Mid-Majority on the web, back in the day (site now defunct). Kyle wrote the definitive piece on college basketball - The Red Line. Defined who was/was not a "midmajor" based on revenues and spending.

The current college basketball system has been designed, setup, primed, and operated to benefit the major conferences - of which the BE is a part of. The plan started in the mid seventies with the killing off of the true Independent schools (which prompted the formation of many conferences (BE included) and the growth of other conferences during the 1977-82 period). Concurrently, the NCAA began periodic expansions of the tournament and began a systematic campaign to kill off the rival NIT Tournament. Expansion success arrived in 1984 with the 64 team field and the NIT was finally subdued by acquisition in 2005.

It is impossible for a non-football school to compete? Yes, the rankings system keeps the P6 in the public eye all season, with a few outsiders sprinkled in for show. Plus the NCAA Tourney system is rigged with seedings and matchups favoring the "basketball elite" teams - they are guaranteed to advance, albeit a few stumble each year to "pesky" mid and low majors. People always lay blame on the victims not being able to keep pace, but the system is set up for the monied P6 to always win. Now in fairness - only a small handful can win, maybe 10-20 of the elite on a regular basis...and that is precisely what we have today. The Washington's, Illinois', Clemson's, Auburn's, Wake Forest's, Seton Hall's can compete in a given year, but only the Mich St's, KU's, UK's, UNC's, Duke's, UCLA's, and Arizona's (and OBE teams Nova, S'cuse, UConn, G'twn) can ever win the dance.

Someone cited Nova's '85 upset win...but Villanova is an elite team. The last true outsider to win a NCAA Title was the 91 UNLV team. Majerus' Utah came close, and the recent unparalleled Mason, VCU, Butler campaigns also came close. However, do not misconstrue these recent runs as a trend... they are not a trend - merely a small anomalous blip in the overall landscape. When Creighton wins the NCAA a couple of times, then we may begin to cite a "trend".

Oh, and "parity" is an illusion...one that is continually perpetrated by the media talking heads to foster hope amongst the tired and poor masses. The NCAA bosses need to give the impression that "anyone can win the Dance" - to give the other 26 conferences hope and to keep their (NCAA) money machine intact.


http://web.archive.org/web/201403311623 ... ority.com/

http://web.archive.org/web/201403311712 ... .com/p/515

http://web.archive.org/web/201206082344 ... om/redline

Many of us BE fans grew up in the basketball version of the Big House on Long Island or other exclusive locales...regularly eat Filet Mignon with rice pilaf, asparagus sprouts, with vino. For dessert Creme Brulee and demitasse cafe.
I come from the Ninth ward. Eating gulf prawns, red beans and rice, gumbo, coffee with Chicory, and rice pudding.

Many of us (you) Big East fans have been elitist for so long...it is 2nd nature.
Thanks to Butler, Creighton, and Xavier - some new blood, enthusiasm, and heart has been injected into the staid environment of privilege that is the Big East. (we are now Them) Hopefully our former Midmajorness will rub off and better the BE environment across the board (probably not) lol.

As for me...I have been a middie forever. I will continue to yell as an outsider, to cheer for the little guy(s), to shine a light on our collective conference prejudices/foibles, and in general - be a pain in the rear. It's what I do. It's a dirty and thankless job, but somebody's gotta do it.

I'm done with this. gtmo

[GumbyDamnit!]

As per your usual, interesting take Gtmo...

However as you remain solidly in the mid-major camp...please forgive the MVC fans that you left behind...when they cast some shade your way...as you sip your drink of choice court side at MSG during the BET, with pinkie raised high...with Bill Murray and Jay Z and other superstars sitting nearby...as your spouse enjoys a hit new Broadway show or an all day shopping spree on 5th avenue...while your beloved over-achieving BJ's battle under the brightest lights... on the biggest stage...on National TV...and forgive their envy as you enjoy each and every dollar generated from TV rights, NCAA credits, hosting teams like Nova, Gtown, Marquette, Butler and Xavier in your home arena...while prized Top 100 recruits sit behind Big Mac and the team... And keep trying to convince yourself that you are still mid major through and through.

The truth is gtmo, your Jays are now part of the establishment you loathed for so long. Sit back and enjoy your spoils. It's gonna be a lot of fun, you'll see.

[jfan]

I'm overjoyed at being in a Power Conference. I hated the mid--major label and every negative ideation that went with that label. I'm sure X and Butler fans would agree. If that makes us part of the Elite, I'm even happier. Now if we can just get Jay Z and Bill Murray to come to Omaha. (Beyoncé would be nice too)

[MackNova]

That said, if Villanova loses tomorrow, the narrative will revert right back to the Big East being overrated. We're going to need tournament success at some point. I think it's more of a fan narrative than anything else, but it's still problematic.

[Westbrook#36]

That narrative isn't going to change until we put at least 3 teams into the S16 in the same tourney. One or two teams teams isn't going to do it. It's too much to ask of Nova by themselves this year, it was too much to ask of Xavier by themselves last year, we need multiple teams at the top pulling most of the weight. Look at this year, the ACC with 6, B1G and Big-12 with 3 each in the S16 they're the big boy conferences. Everyone else basketball wise is considered a tier or 2 below, that just the way it is.

[DudeAnon]

That narrative isn't going to change until we put at least 3 teams into the S16 in the same tourney. One or two teams teams isn't going to do it. It's too much to ask of Nova by themselves this year, it was too much to ask of Xavier by themselves last year, we need multiple teams at the top pulling most of the weight. Look at this year, the ACC with 6, B1G and Big-12 with 3 each in the S16 they're the big boy conferences. Everyone else basketball wise is considered a tier or 2 below, that just the way it is.

True, but part of that is just improving our conference in general. The only game the BE has lost this tournament when they were favored was Xavier to Wisconsin. So that is 1 upset out of 9 games. We just need to improve the seedings. Don't get me wrong, we have had bad performances 3 years running now. But its not all just bad luck.

[BigmanU]

So many mixed feelings.

On one hand, I want to say the NCAA's are a total crap shoot where you need plenty of luck and some favorable matchups. After all, George Mason made the Final Four not long ago. There were also plenty of mid majors upsetting major programs this year. But at the same time, the huge football schools always seem to make the Final Four and eventually win with few exceptions. As much as I'd like to say that the football schools don't have an advantage in the SEC/PAC12/B1G/ACC/Big 12, they certainly seem to. Though they may squeak by opponents, they just seem to be able to do what they need to win. It worries me that the last non-football school to win the tourney was Nova in 1985, 4 years before I was even born (I'm 26). To me, that shows there is some clear advantage being a big football school. Whether it's the money, the resources, the training, the facilities, etc. they are clearly at an advantage. I honestly thought we could hold our own in the tourney when the new Big East began 3 years ago, but after 3 straight years of flat out bad performances, it has me worried.

This was supposed to be the year we got 2 if not 3 teams in the Sweet 16 and hopefully 1 to the Elite 8 or Final Four. Instead, we get 1 team in the Sweet 16 in Nova and even if they make the Final Four or win it all, many pundits will still claim that the Big East is garbage except for Nova. They will see us as the WCC with Nova being our Gonzaga. This scares me. I know we keep saying eventually we will break the curse, but eventually it actually has to happen and that's just being honest. I realize the PAC12 sucked this year. I realize the SEC sucked this year. But they have nothing to prove because they play major football and ESPN will always treat them as above us. We have a ton to prove, they don't. To be totally honest, I am worried about this conference and think the only way we could get back to being a national power (that makes frequent deep runs and top 25 appearances) is if we got UConn back and made it a national conference with Gonzaga and the like. I still have hope so don't get me wrong, but seeing 3 straight awful performances in the tourney is aggravating, especially because we ARE so talented, but it doesn't show in the results. Yes we were great in the regular season and held our own in the OOC, and yes it's unfair to judge a conference's strength based on tourney results alone, but that's life in college basketball. If you don't show up come tourney time, even if it's a loss at a buzzer, unfortunately you will be dismissed by many as overrated. I don't agree with it at all, but that's the game and culture right now.

The potential is there for something great in this conference, but I'd be lying if I wasn't worried about the future of this conference. It has gotten so bad IMO that even if Nova wins, we will still look bad overall as a conference and be seen as a one trick pony (the way UConn is in the AAC). This is not me being dramatic or trying to start anything. This is just me being honest. There has been a clear separation between the Football 5 and us. Not in the regular season, but in the tourney it's clear as day. It can't all just be boiled down to luck when a non-football school hasn't won since 85. And it kills me saying that. I hope I eat my words and get proven dead wrong, but this 3rd straight bad tourney was very sobering.

Last time I checked the WCC got 1 team in the dance & we got 5. All but 1 BEast team advanced to the 2nd round. WCC we are not